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Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Collective agreement for the pilots being negotiated

Old Jul 5, 2022, 1:16 am
  #256  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
I have my suspicions that SAS management had planned to torpedo the situation with a bankruptcy filing regardless of whatever the SAS pilots would agree to and do. In other words, that would mean SAS management wanted to file for bankruptcy using very high priced lawyers in the US and the pilots were just pawns to be played.
Yes, SAS was asked in todays press conference about how long they had considered a Chapter 11, and the answer was since February.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 1:17 am
  #257  
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Originally Posted by vanillabean
Yes, SAS was asked in today’s press conference about how long they had considered a Chapter 11, and the answer was since February.
I have my suspicions that their claim about “since February” is playing fast and loose with the truth. I would be very surprised if this hadn’t come up before February.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 1:39 am
  #258  
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Interesting, chapter 11 is filed for SAS AB, SAS Danmark A/S, SAS Norge AS, SAS Sverige AB, Scandinavian Airlines System Denmark-Norway-Sweden, and Scandinavian Airlines of America Inc. Plus a series of interesting Gorm companies....

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Old Jul 5, 2022, 2:11 am
  #259  
 
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It takes more than 4 months to prepare a Chapter 11, especially for a primarily European company.

I fully support the move as this has been overdue for YEARS.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 2:25 am
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
It takes more than 4 months to prepare a Chapter 11, especially for a primarily European company.
It can be done in well less than 4 months, even with a European company.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 2:31 am
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The Gorm companies in Ireland have financed/leased most of the aircraft delivered in the last years, they are wholly owned SAS subsidiaries and would be a natural part of Ch.11.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 2:54 am
  #262  
 
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
It can be done in well less than 4 months, even with a European company.
This is especially true because the reorganisation plan is already created (SAS Forward) and the parties already can't come to agreement on that plan as written.

So if SAS is successful, they will use the absence of an agreement with the pilots unions to say that the pilots must de facto accept the proposed employment framework as part of SAS Forward. At which time the pilots can choose to permanently walk away or not. Then when it is the flight attendants and ground workers time for contract renegotiations, SAS might use the same tactics if they haven't emerged from bankruptcy by then.

I think GUWonder is really onto the golden thread here, which is the other unions that SAS has to deal with and hopefully SAS has accounted accurately for their reaction. If those other unions weren't paying attention and wondering "what will this mean for me?" ... well they are now.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 3:00 am
  #263  
 
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Originally Posted by dark_phoenix
This is especially true because the reorganisation plan is already created (SAS Forward) and the parties already can't come to agreement on that plan as written.

So if SAS is successful, they will use the absence of an agreement with the pilots unions to say that the pilots must de facto accept the proposed employment framework as part of SAS Forward. At which time the pilots can choose to permanently walk away or not. Then when it is the flight attendants and ground workers time for contract renegotiations, SAS might use the same tactics if they haven't emerged from bankruptcy by then.

I think GUWonder is really onto the golden thread here, which is the other unions that SAS has to deal with and hopefully SAS has accounted accurately for their reaction. If those other unions weren't paying attention and wondering "what will this mean for me?" ... well they are now.
Sure but how many months have been put into SAS Forward? Setting up that plan is part of a Chapter 11 strategy. Someone better work miracles if your start to finish Chapter 11 is done in less than 4 months.

Does SAS still directly employ ground staff and ground services staff? Those are usually outsourced through HR companies.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 3:05 am
  #264  
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
Sure but how many months have been put into SAS Forward? Setting up that plan is part of a Chapter 11 strategy. Someone better work miracles if your start to finish Chapter 11 is done in less than 4 months.
Earlier in the thread, you were talking about preparing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. And now you are talking about start to finish for Chapter 11. Those are two different things.

The former can be done in less than 4 months.

No one said the latter — exiting Chapter 11 — in this kind of situation would take less than 4 months from preparing for Chapter 11.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 3:08 am
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
Sure but how many months have been put into SAS Forward? Setting up that plan is part of a Chapter 11 strategy. Someone better work miracles if your start to finish Chapter 11 is done in less than 4 months.

Does SAS still directly employ ground staff and ground services staff? Those are usually outsourced through HR companies.
If you've worked with strategy before, then you know that at a place like SAS, months of discussion about SAS Forward would have been had before even presenting it or making it widely known. It's not like they came up with the strategy over a lunch and wrote it on the back of a napkin. Any graduate of Mgmt 101 would have put together that plan and had a set of contingencies ready to go in case it didn't go the way that they wanted it to go. Especially if they believe in their plan as strongly as the SAS Board and Management seem to do.

So yes, I am doubling down on the comment that you don't need miracles or a lot of time to get this done. As a process, it's fairly straightforward. What might slow it down is the process of discovery that the pilots union would initiate to see if there were any smoking guns that could help them in their case. But this automatically isn't a long drawn-out affair...especially if SAS claims (as it does) that its survival is at stake without rapid progress and quick decisions. Those high-priced lawyers they hired at paid to make the wheels in the Hall of Justice spin a bit faster than normal.

And yes, you are correct about the ground staff, but it also doesn't take away from my point that in the event of a protracted period under bankruptcy protection, SAS would likely use that as coverage to help push through other deals with any other union it has to deal with directly.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 3:09 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Earlier in the thread, you were talking about preparing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. And now you are talking about start to finish for Chapter 11. Those are two different things.

The former can be done in less than 4 months.

No one said the latter — exiting Chapter 11 — in this kind of situation would take less than 4 months from preparing for Chapter 11.
You could be a $2400/hour lawyer with that appetite for wordsmithing.

Originally Posted by dark_phoenix
And yes, you are correct about the ground staff, but it also doesn't take away from my point that in the event of a protracted period under bankruptcy protection, SAS would likely use that as coverage to help push through other deals with any other union it has to deal with directly.
Yes, I do not disagree was just wondering about ground staff as it mostly leaves the cabin crew unions.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 3:12 am
  #267  
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Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
You could be a $2400/hour lawyer with that appetite for wordsmithing.
It was your posts’ wordsmith-ing that was being noted for its wordsmith-ing.

I have made my money by not being hoodwinked by wordsmiths with their own agendas on the down low or not. .

But to get back to the agenda of disillusionment over collective bargaining, pilots struck, who else at SAS will?
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Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 5, 2022 at 3:21 am
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 3:17 am
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This is an internet forum, not the United Nations. No communications people review wording. My agenda is hardly a mystery.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 4:36 am
  #269  
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Originally Posted by dark_phoenix
This is especially true because the reorganisation plan is already created (SAS Forward) and the parties already can't come to agreement on that plan as written.

So if SAS is successful, they will use the absence of an agreement with the pilots unions to say that the pilots must de facto accept the proposed employment framework as part of SAS Forward. At which time the pilots can choose to permanently walk away or not. Then when it is the flight attendants and ground workers time for contract renegotiations, SAS might use the same tactics if they haven't emerged from bankruptcy by then.

I think GUWonder is really onto the golden thread here, which is the other unions that SAS has to deal with and hopefully SAS has accounted accurately for their reaction. If those other unions weren't paying attention and wondering "what will this mean for me?" ... well they are now.
I don't see a US bankruptcy court having any legal standing to enforce anything in a labour dispute between a Danish legal entity and Danish employees, not that I know enough about Swedish and Norwegian labour laws and systems but I would imagine that the influence of an American judge is equally slim.
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Old Jul 5, 2022, 4:46 am
  #270  
 
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Originally Posted by CPH-Flyer
I don't see a US bankruptcy court having any legal standing to enforce anything in a labour dispute between a Danish legal entity and Danish employees, not that I know enough about Swedish and Norwegian labour laws and systems but I would imagine that the influence of an American judge is equally slim.
The same should be true for Sweden. It seems that the attractiveness of US Chapter 11 for SAS is that it gives SAS a bit more time to try to restructure with its physical assets still in place, and that the management and board stays in control to a higher degree than what would be the case if there was a formal restructuring under Swedish law.
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