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-   -   B737 fleet to be based in OSL [split off from A350 thread] (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/sas-eurobonus/1978133-b737-fleet-based-osl-split-off-a350-thread.html)

copperred Jul 14, 2019 1:05 pm


Originally Posted by Tango Alpha (Post 31301193)
I would.

Indeed. It's a bit odd to suggest in a world where people have far more access to knowledge and likely will still have access to screening out an aircraft (that probably won't fly until next year) that is thought extremely unsafe. Indeed, mixing Airbus and Boeing mainly occurs in very large airlines because of the differences in cockpit and type ratings.

Few except the most dedicated Boeing customers or delusional would announce they'd buy any now, lest it tarnish the brand.

highupinthesky Jul 14, 2019 1:36 pm


Originally Posted by copperred (Post 31302827)
Indeed. It's a bit odd to suggest in a world where people have far more access to knowledge and likely will still have access to screening out an aircraft (that probably won't fly until next year) that is thought extremely unsafe. Indeed, mixing Airbus and Boeing mainly occurs in very large airlines because of the differences in cockpit and type ratings.

Few except the most dedicated Boeing customers or delusional would announce they'd buy any now, lest it tarnish the brand.

Again. Tango Alpha's quote is taken out of context. The missing part is that the issues with the B737-max had to be fixed and the reputation restored.

copperred Jul 14, 2019 3:32 pm


Originally Posted by highupinthesky (Post 31302919)
Again. Tango Alpha's quote is taken out of context. The missing part is that the issues with the B737-max had to be fixed and the reputation restored.

I read all of the preceding posts and did not see additional information. You can't fix it. The whole problem is trying to use software to fix a radical change in hardware design. It's like lipstick on a pig with three legs. If, and it's a big one, the autopilot doesn't require rewrite/redesign, it will still be many months before it flies again. Ryanair seems to be trying a renaming of its aircraft, trying to make them a continuation on the 737-800, just adding a zero or changing a following number after 8.

Even with that, why would SK add Boeings (and one with such a horrible reputation) to an all Airbus fleet? It makes no sense.

Tango Alpha Jul 15, 2019 2:47 am


Originally Posted by highupinthesky (Post 31301204)
When you quote, please be fair and quote the whole context. I did write that a prereq. for SK to order B737-max would be that the current issues has been solved and the reputation has being restored. It's an important part of the sentence IMHO.

Well, quoting a long post with several points doesn’t exactly make it easy to see what part of it, one is referring to.

If somebody would check your whole argument, it is very easy scrolling upwards. I always read well backwards before commenting.

The prerequisite that the current issues with the 737 Max has been solved and the reputation has been restored is obvious (though IAG didn’t wait for that…).

But it is not the current Max-crises at all, that makes be doubt, that SAS ‘ever’ would go back to a Boeing narrowbody. SAS has emphasized, that it is going for a simple, unified fleet. In that, it even avoids choosing any 319/321 for medium haul – which would give some route-optimizing-opportunities.

In that respect, choosing a score or two of a completely different plane but with the same characteristics doesn’t make sense.

fassy Jul 15, 2019 3:25 am


Originally Posted by Tango Alpha (Post 31304550)
The prerequisite that the current issues with the 737 Max has been solved and the reputation has been restored is obvious (though IAG didn’t wait for that…).

Yeah, those discounts for IAG must have been massive to go for a purchasing decision of a type which is - at least for the moment - grounded indefinitly and has such a miserable reputation. Even if they take off again, I see a DC10-like thing happening. People will book even more expensive or inconvenient flights trying to avoid the MAX8s.


Originally Posted by Tango Alpha (Post 31304550)
But it is not the current Max-crises at all, that makes be doubt, that SAS ‘ever’ would go back to a Boeing narrowbody. SAS has emphasized, that it is going for a simple, unified fleet. In that, it even avoids choosing any 319/321 for medium haul – which would give some route-optimizing-opportunities.

Yes, it can't be economical for a small airline like SK to run a mixed narrow-body fleet. Just standardize on one type (at least family like 319/320/321) and share engineering, servicing, crews, training etc.

highupinthesky Jul 15, 2019 5:14 am


Originally Posted by copperred (Post 31303256)
The whole problem is trying to use software to fix a radical change in hardware design. It's like lipstick on a pig with three legs. If, and it's a big one, the autopilot doesn't require rewrite/redesign, it will still be many months before it flies again. Ryanair seems to be trying a renaming of its aircraft, trying to make them a continuation on the 737-800, just adding a zero or changing a following number after 8.

I completely agree Boeing has messed up big time. The situation with the 737-MAX crashed are very similar to the SK751 crash in Arlanda on December 27 1991. The initial problem here were ice from the wings being sucked into the engines, but what turned a manageable incident into a crash were the recently applied software upgrade which restored power on the engines if he pilots reduces below a set minimum during takeoff. Neither the pilots nor the airlines know about this software update. This power restoration put the engines above the surge level and both engines therefore failed and the plane crashed instead of returning to the airport which were possible had the pilots know about the software upgrade and how to disable it.


Originally Posted by copperred (Post 31303256)
Even with that, why would SK add Boeings (and one with such a horrible reputation) to an all Airbus fleet? It makes no sense.

Again the part missing from Tango Alpha's quote is the part were I state that the reputation has to be restored for SK to consider 737-MAX's.

highupinthesky Jul 15, 2019 5:28 am


Originally Posted by copperred (Post 31303256)
I read all of the preceding posts and did not see additional information. You can't fix it.

Please see the below quote of the full sentence and not just the second half which Tango Alpha quoted.


Originally Posted by Tango Alpha (Post 31304550)
Well, quoting a long post with several points doesn’t exactly make it easy to see what part of it, one is referring to.

I'm not asking you to quote the hole post or even whole section. I'm only asking you not to quote out of context. You only quoted half of the sentence, which completely changed the meaning. And for your record the whole sentence is quoted below.

Originally Posted by highupinthesky (Post 31300097)
If the issues has been solve and reputation restored, I wouldn't be surprised if SK announces they will buy a bunch of B737-max in 5 years time.


Originally Posted by Tango Alpha (Post 31304550)
If somebody would check your whole argument, it is very easy scrolling upwards. I always read well backwards before commenting.

Well. I know quite a number of people who trusts the quotes and don't read the whole tread. All I'm asking is that you quote the whole context so the meaning of the quote is the same as in the original text.


Originally Posted by Tango Alpha (Post 31304550)
The prerequisite that the current issues with the 737 Max has been solved and the reputation has been restored is obvious (though IAG didn’t wait for that…).

If that were true, why have we been seeing more airlines signing contracts for B737-MAX deliveries during the last 3 months and almost no cancellations of existing orders?


Originally Posted by Tango Alpha (Post 31304550)
But it is not the current Max-crises at all, that makes be doubt, that SAS ‘ever’ would go back to a Boeing narrowbody. SAS has emphasized, that it is going for a simple, unified fleet. In that, it even avoids choosing any 319/321 for medium haul – which would give some route-optimizing-opportunities.
In that respect, choosing a score or two of a completely different plane but with the same characteristics doesn’t make sense.

And 5 years ago they praised having a fleet with different types of aircraft's as it made them less vulnerable to issues on a specific model. It's PR to justify the order they made.

oliver2002 Jul 15, 2019 5:42 am

Currently the CW is to have one type (A320neo or B738max) only and fly everything with that, maybe some regional routes with a ATR/E90/CR9 fleet preferably by a wetlease partner. That supposedly gives you the best utilization and lowest unit cost. Also ordering 00s of aircraft from A or B gives your pricing leverage, ideally coupled with a few widebody orders (the word on the street is that IAG got a decent retroactive discount on previous B777/787 orders just for the max LOI, which BTW is just a piece of PR paper and doesn't place any obligation on IAG).

SAS is an Airbus shop since the early 2000s. The MD/DC9 are long gone and were replaced with leased A320 & B738 from Gecas. The B736 fleet is being replaced with A32N. The SAS B737 fleet is a wild mix of own, inherited (Braathens) and leased aircraft of 5-6 subtypes. Its screaming for optimisation. https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/...ive-b737ng.htm

RedChili Jul 15, 2019 6:02 am


Originally Posted by ImportViking (Post 31299775)
I learned something new, thank you. :) I have been told that the only reason why the Boeing 737 NG uses G and H is to avoid confusion when using B737 as type, as that's already a 'generic' Boeing 737. Or so I have been told. No one told me that winglets make the difference here.

When the 737-700 was first introduced, its code was the seventh letter of the alphabet, 73G, to avoid confusion with the generic 737 code. When blended winglets were introduced, they started using the letters for aircraft with blended winglets. So, a 738 with blended winglets became a 73H. A 739 with blended winglets became a 73J (the eleventh letter, probably because the tenth letter, I, can easily be confused with the number 1). The seventh letter was already in use for the baseline 737-700, so that's why they instead used the 73W for winglets. (And then when scimitar winglets were introduced on the 73H, I think it became a 7S8 or 73S or something similar, I can't really remember.)

copperred Jul 15, 2019 6:39 am


Originally Posted by highupinthesky (Post 31304834)
Please see the below quote of the full sentence and not just the second half which Tango Alpha quoted.


I'm not asking you to quote the hole post or even whole section. I'm only asking you not to quote out of context. You only quoted half of the sentence, which completely changed the meaning. And for your record the whole sentence is quoted below.



Well. I know quite a number of people who trusts the quotes and don't read the whole tread. All I'm asking is that you quote the whole context so the meaning of the quote is the same as in the original text.


If that were true, why have we been seeing more airlines signing contracts for B737-MAX deliveries during the last 3 months and almost no cancellations of existing orders?


And 5 years ago they praised having a fleet with different types of aircraft's as it made them less vulnerable to issues on a specific model. It's PR to justify the order they made.

Honestly I don't know what you're looking for. As many others have stated (as have I), a mixed fleet is counter the conventional wisdom and adds extra costs.

TBH I don't understand your reference to Gottröra at all since they kept flying the many and various iterations of the DC9 in the MD80 and 90s for decades thereafter. In addition when those iterations occurred, no one thought it was a good idea to massively change the placement of the engines in a way that drastically altered the aircraft's handling abilities and its flying characteristics.

Margins are thin, why take on the potential risk of a lemon of an aircraft?

I understand your point just fine, that you think in 5 years time everyone will have forgotten and go along merrily and set that as a prerequisite for the purchase. That dog won't hunt.


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