3 A321LR for SAS from H1 2020

Old Nov 24, 2019, 5:28 am
  #61  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Yes, and it's basically another indication of SAS become even more CPH-focused than it is already.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a matter of time until SK reduces MIA-bound capacity at ARN and/or OSL, but let's see how that goes.
If I remember correct, ARN-MIA were only 1 rotation per week last year. So 2 rotations per week is a 100% increase.
highupinthesky is offline  
Old Nov 24, 2019, 5:36 am
  #62  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by highupinthesky
If I remember correct, ARN-MIA were only 1 rotation per week last year. So 2 rotations per week is a 100% increase.
Was last year. But let's say the benchmark is this month in this year, not last year.

SAS is increasingly the CPH-first-airline with ARN and OSL being to SK what MSP is to DL. CPH is SK's version of DL's JFK, ATL, SEA and LAX rolled up into one.

At least the A321LRs should help SK to keep ARN and OSL with more long-haul service than SK would otherwise provide them. But that doesn't mean SK is going to double down on MIA-bound ARN and OSL capacity anytime soon and do so for any longer-term purpose. CPH is the center of SK's world, and it shows with the MIA-bound service too.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Nov 24, 2019, 5:52 am
  #63  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Was last year. But let's say the benchmark is this month in this year, not last year.

SAS is increasingly the CPH-first-airline with ARN and OSL being to SK what MSP is to DL. CPH is SK's version of DL's JFK, ATL, SEA and LAX rolled up into one.

At least the A321LRs should help SK to keep ARN and OSL with more long-haul service than SK would otherwise provide them. But that doesn't mean SK is going to double down on MIA-bound ARN and OSL capacity anytime soon and do so for any longer-term purpose. CPH is the center of SK's world, and it shows with the MIA-bound service too.
Due to changes in seasons, you need to compare with the same month the year before. Anything else will be comparing apples to bananas. Beside that. CPH has always been the main hub for SK long haul. I can still remember the time when there were no SK long haul flights out of ARN and OSL at all.
ARN and OSL have gotten a bump in long haul within the last 10 years, at a time where CPH raised their fees more than OSL and ARN. Now it's going the other way where SE is adding taxes, the NO government have sold their shares in SK, and both OSL and ARN are raising their fees more than CPH. So to me it's natural that SK moves long haul to CPH, as this airport is better positiones for TATL flights, specially if you connect from Europa.
highupinthesky is offline  
Old Nov 24, 2019, 6:10 am
  #64  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Comparing this week this year with this week next year works just fine for an apples to apples comparison.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Nov 30, 2019, 5:02 am
  #65  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Programs: EuroBonus Diamond, Delta Skymiles 360, BAEC LTG, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 2,801
Originally Posted by highupinthesky
Due to changes in seasons, you need to compare with the same month the year before. Anything else will be comparing apples to bananas. Beside that. CPH has always been the main hub for SK long haul. I can still remember the time when there were no SK long haul flights out of ARN and OSL at all.
ARN and OSL have gotten a bump in long haul within the last 10 years, at a time where CPH raised their fees more than OSL and ARN. Now it's going the other way where SE is adding taxes, the NO government have sold their shares in SK, and both OSL and ARN are raising their fees more than CPH. So to me it's natural that SK moves long haul to CPH, as this airport is better positiones for TATL flights, specially if you connect from Europa.
This has been argued so many times before. The problem has always been that SK doesn't make reasonable effort to ensure ARN/OSL routes are a success (or the SVG route). Bad timing, connections not aligned and poor marketing will cause any route to be less successful. Alienating your business travellers by putting all your relevant long haul routes in the least relevant Nordic country isn't helping anyone. Neither are increased routes to the US East Coast when demand yells West Coast and APAC.
RoyalSwazi likes this.
FlyingMoose is offline  
Old Nov 30, 2019, 6:23 am
  #66  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Programs: SK Pandion, BA Silver
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
This has been argued so many times before.
The point being argued often does not make it wrong.

If demand was so good out of ARN, one would have thought that other carriers would fill it. Norwegian has also given up.
highupinthesky likes this.
ScandiGB is offline  
Old Dec 2, 2019, 10:25 pm
  #67  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bombay
Programs: EC Blue, EB Silver, FB Gold
Posts: 551
SAS is a tiny airline and they can’t support three long haul hubs to start off with. If a long haul flight is to survive it needs sufficient O&D as well as good feed at least in one end. SAS’ connectivity ex OSL and ARN is terrible unless you have a domestic connection. Moscow, St Petersburg, the Baltics, the UK and northern continental Europe are natural feeder areas for SAS but what sort of connections do they offer for their longhaul flights? Apart from London, there are no flights arriving in time to catch EWR or MIA without staying overnight.
East_and_West likes this.
RoyalSwazi is offline  
Old Dec 2, 2019, 11:55 pm
  #68  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ARN
Posts: 3,467
Originally Posted by ScandiGB
The point being argued often does not make it wrong.

If demand was so good out of ARN, one would have thought that other carriers would fill it. Norwegian has also given up.
But other carriers are filling it: Air China, China Eastern, Emirates, Qatar, Ethiopian, Air India, Singapore, All Nippon, Icelandair, United, plus lots of passengers on connecting flights via HEL, AMS, CDG, FRA, ZRH, LHR, IST and others.
RedChili is offline  
Old Dec 3, 2019, 1:17 am
  #69  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by RedChili
But other carriers are filling it: Air China, China Eastern, Emirates, Qatar, Ethiopian, Air India, Singapore, All Nippon, Icelandair, United, plus lots of passengers on connecting flights via HEL, AMS, CDG, FRA, ZRH, LHR, IST and others.
Almost all those airlines have been in ARN for years, and all the connecting airports have connections to CPH too. All in all, ARN have totally lost long haul routes over the last couple of years. There has been more airlines moving out of ARN than comming in, and those in ARN have reduced their frequency and destinations more than they have increased it.
highupinthesky is offline  
Old Dec 3, 2019, 1:58 am
  #70  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Programs: EuroBonus Diamond, Delta Skymiles 360, BAEC LTG, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 2,801
The point remains that the flag carrier should be able to take on more of that demand than those foreign airlines. With an average of 7-9+ flights each feeding into longhaul in AMS, FRA, LHR, ZRH, IST etc in addition to the mentioned carriers, there are a few obvious routes that should work if the product, pricing and service align with the customer demand.
FlyingMoose is offline  
Old Dec 3, 2019, 3:16 am
  #71  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by FlyingMoose
The point remains that the flag carrier should be able to take on more of that demand than those foreign airlines. With an average of 7-9+ flights each feeding into longhaul in AMS, FRA, LHR, ZRH, IST etc in addition to the mentioned carriers, there are a few obvious routes that should work if the product, pricing and service align with the customer demand.
??? Most of the airlines RedChilli mentioned is flag carriers in their region.

The whole point is there are not a large enough demand for having more long haul routes in ARN. Being in the middle between HEL and CPH does not do any good for neither ARN nor OSL.
highupinthesky is offline  
Old Dec 3, 2019, 5:22 am
  #72  
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,001
The ME3 and the *A/ST/OW cartels have consistently and brutally attacked the Nordic market with super low premium fares both to Asia as well as S./N. America. SAS is doing the same in the home markets of AF-KL, LH and BA. Which means that SAS' yield is probably in the dumps because they still fly around with gas guzzling A343, have high crew costs and just spend a lot of cash refurbishing the interiors.
oliver2002 is offline  
Old Dec 3, 2019, 6:33 am
  #73  
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: London
Programs: *A G, OW S.
Posts: 996
In simplistic terms I've never understood why SAS does not route long haul eastbound from ARN and westbound from CPH or OSL depending on which has the biggest home market. If I were ARN based and going east, returning to CPH would be a big no and I would choose another airline and if I wanted a local connection I would choose AY. Sweden is the biggest single market of the Scandinavian countries and yet nothing operates from there and SAS have failed to exploit it.
Dover2Golf is offline  
Old Dec 3, 2019, 6:51 am
  #74  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 20,889
Originally Posted by Dover2Golf
In simplistic terms I've never understood why SAS does not route long haul eastbound from ARN and westbound from CPH or OSL depending on which has the biggest home market. If I were ARN based and going east, returning to CPH would be a big no and I would choose another airline and if I wanted a local connection I would choose AY. Sweden is the biggest single market of the Scandinavian countries and yet nothing operates from there and SAS have failed to exploit it.
Plenty of people fly from Sweden or Denmark to Asia via London. When I take QR to Doha from Tokyo I am always surprised how many destinations like London, Copenhagen, Stockholm are on the connection list. Going via the middle east between northern Europe and Japan is just an enormous detour. Yet people are perfectly willing to take it. Price, service, alliance (cartel) can easily make people take big detours.
GUWonder and Tango Alpha like this.
CPH-Flyer is online now  
Old Dec 3, 2019, 8:39 am
  #75  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Programs: SK Pandion, BA Silver
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by RedChili
But other carriers are filling it: Air China, China Eastern, Emirates, Qatar, Ethiopian, Air India, Singapore, All Nippon, Icelandair, United, plus lots of passengers on connecting flights via HEL, AMS, CDG, FRA, ZRH, LHR, IST and others.
That is one way of viewing it. Another is:
- Airlines feeding their global network. Not a business SAS could meaningfully replace by flying to Dubai/Qatar/Singapore.
- no US carriers flying anywhere SAS is not flying. Not a single US carrier has a flight to a large hub (other than United’s flight to Stockholm). Not a single west coast flight. If it is such a good business case why is SAS moving the flight and nobody filling it?
- Iceland-air has a business model based on fuel savings. They have one narrow-body departure daily. Hardly a meaningful comparison.
- Carriers with local regional network which it is very difficult for SAS to tap in to (Singapore, Thai, Ethiopian)
- some carriers with significantly lower staff costs having a few weekly departures (China eastern, Thai, Ethiopian etc).
- A couple of carriers mainly based in immigrant demand (PIA, IranAir).
- Ana to try. Maybe it works. Let’s see.

The bottom line is that there are not many examples of routes that SAS could fly being served by others. The Tokyo route may of course be one.

The data points would indicate it is difficult in Stockholm. Airlines are closing routes. This has been true for Norwegian (all routes), SAS (Hong Kong, LA), Delta (Atlanta) etc.

Needless to say you are right that demand will be served through hubs if direct routes are not profitable. That however does not make a direct route a viable alternative. The fact that Singapore, which you mention goes through Moscow is an interesting indication that a direct route is not viable.
ScandiGB is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.