well... it gives you the security of knowing your twice as safe as those ramshackle airlines that recommend just the one bow - shame on them!

still i say.. water landing + jet liner = certain doom

It looks classier? :D

US airlines do not have to have lifevests or rafts if they don't operate over the ocean (I think there's a small amount allowed for coastal airports.)

If you land in a lake, it's just you and the seat cushion.

By the way, Southwest has just introduced lifevests on its aircraft, to take advantage of routes over the Gulf of Mexico. There's some discussion in this in the Southwest forum, as the F/A briefing now includes the lifevests on all flights, not just those operating over the ocean.

Agreed. Still, putting it on and getting the double knot right gives one something to do in the final moments before meeting the grim reaper. There's a whistle for attracting his attention.

BMI have the same system. No idea why they don't use metal or plastic hooks like most others.

An explosive decompression would have resulted in the loss of Concorde....'explosive' being the operative word. Whether or not your blood boiled would be academic as the aircraft would probably cease to be 'a viable flying machine'.

However, a decompression in the normal sense (cabin leak, window blowout) would in all likelyhood not have been fatal, and there were procedures in place for this....oxy masks on, immediate descent (at points at a rate of 15,000ft/min), rapid pumping of fuel forwards to maintain CofG, that sort of thing.

In fact, the airconditioning system on Concorde was so sophisticated that it could maintain a liveable altitude inside the cabin whilst at 60,000ft with two windows blown out....

...and that awful crash in the Everglades was brought about by the company's transporting undeclared oxygen canisters which caught fire in the cargo hold, the heat of which severed the link between the cockpit controls and the flaps/rudder. :eek:

FWIW, Valujet changed their name to AirTran shortly after the accident and are still operating throughout the southeastern US and beyond.

Of the two local airlines in the East Carribean, Carribean Star give me a lot more confidence than LIAT. Both operate Dash-8s. However it was Carribean Star who have a seat base that could be used as a floatation device, LIAT give you a proper lifejacket. However LIAT also gave me a very old-looking plane, with condensation dripping on me from the ceiling at altitude (that can't be good, can it?). When you bear in mind that many carribean islands have runways that end at the water's edge I still think I'd like a real lifejacket though!

Indeed, which is why I get really annoyed by people comparing Ryanair to ValuJet - there really isn't any comparison between the two, and no matter how much you dislike FR, comparing them to ValuJet is extremely unfair.

If you've got a spare few minutes, this makes for VERY interesting reading... http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/inpag...ner=DISPATCHES

It is scanned in copies of all the communications between Channel 4 (representatives of) and Ryanair.

I think it was silly of Ryanair to do that as after reading it all, I tend to side with Channel 4!! Ryanair's responses sound very typical bully boy answers. It's that sort of attitude that permeated through his management and his crews. That's a very good reason not to fly them.

Also, can some one clarify for me the position of allowing passengers into the cockpit? I'm refering to the clip where the plane in spain (?) has been delayed by 3 hours and a passenger goes up asking for drinks to be served. It seems from the clip that the captain has stayed in his seat and the passenger is in the doorway. I thought that no passengers were allowed anywhere near the cockpit since 9/11, or is that just US airlines?

Yes, I think so. I have been on some European flights recently where the cockpit door has been open for at least a moment, including one not unadjacent to here.

On our EZ NCE-LTN, delayed because LTN was closed, the captain came into the cabin several times, using the cabin crew's handset to keep us up to date with what was (or wasn't) happening.

In the case of LiarAir, I guess the main door was kept closed just in case they needed to be ready to fly quickly, hence no risk of attack from outside.

The plane was on the ground at the time. They can't stop passengers going near the cockpit when the plane is on the ground as the cockpit door has to be open to allow liaison between flight crew and dispatcher, and on these small 737s (or equivalent) row 1 is about a metre from the cockpit door.

Whilst in flight, passengers are not supposed to be anywhere near the cockpit.

Ryanair have posted a number of customer letters on their website in response to the dispatches programme

http://www.ryanair.com/site/promos/d...dispatches.pdf

It was not Valujet that did it. That was done by its maintenance contractor, without Valujet's knowledge and (IIRC) with a false declaration. Whatever faults Valujet may have had, this was not one of them.

As for the programme itself
 

The correspondence on the website really says it all. Once you've read it, the programme itself simply provides the pictures to back up the complaints. The complaints are a mixed bag - some have just been puffed up to fill out the programme, but others are more serious. The biggest problem with FR, though, is something that a programme like this can't really do more than hint at: It's the corporate culture, and the corrosive effect. The programme can't do more than to point at the occasional hole in the top piece of cheese - hole that every airline will have from time to time. It's the corporate culture which may - or may not - eventually result in all the other hidden holes in the hidden slices all lining up one day, and an aluminium shower being the end result.

"RYANAIR CALLS ON CHANNEL 4 DISPATCHES TO ADMIT THAT TODAY'S PRINT ADVERT PHOTO WAS NOT TAKEN IN A RYANAIR AIRCRAFT, BUT IS A POSED 'SET-UP"
http://www.ryanair.com/site/promos/d...6-02-13%5D.pdf

does anyone happen to have a copy of this advert photo? would be interesting to compare with a true likeness if possible...

Are you surprised the picture of a whole page advertisement is created using a set created ad hoc (i.e in studio) ? I'm not. That page was purchased and I consider fine they recreated something anyway recorded and displayed during the program.
One thing is the visual evidence of a crewmember sleeping during a flight that ended with a crash and fatalities; an other is 'advertisement'.

You need to accept the captain statement if you do not like them, never fly with them again, there's a huge customer base to fish from.

From one part you have a company whose policy sounds like:

"Was your seat near a disgusting pool of smelling stuff, without a lifejacket and placed on a plane where you were delayed for 4 hours without any support and with a slide that seemed un-operational and all the FAs slept during the flight, that was boarded without a proper control between name on the ticket and name on the IDs ? If so, (but we anyway deny everything) shut up and do not fly with us any more. We not need you... there're anyway enough fools around"
"It was great, I had an almost free flight" and eventually the following closing sentence: "and the FAs were so kind, not like those of [insert your local carrier name here] who do not even smiled when serving a glass of DP champagne in my last first class RTW"

I can avoid them, I'm very happy about avoiding them but I'm lucky to have the choice of avoiding them and I can afford to pay for my leisure trips or use FFPs awards. A lot of EU guys can not and here it is.
:( A character (a bad one) in a book of fiction told you can squeeze money out of lower class guys (i.e. poor) because they have the need (of travel) and not the choice. :(

May I just say, about 6 months ago I suggested that BA flyertalkers should have a look at the website set up by Ryanair staff indicating their worries about their training, the amount of hours they work and the lack of safety practises they found in their work place.
I knew about this because I have a friend that used to train BA crew and left on a big pay rise to work for Ryanair (after being head hunted by FR) she found the whole organisation and the crew they recruited so lacking she came back to BA
I hate to tell you... I told you so....
I apologise for grammar due to jet lag and 3 glasses of wine ... hic!

Bump. This is on again tonight at 20.10 on C4's digital channel, More4.
http://www.channel4sales.com/program...schedules.aspx

And if you're reading this at 21.10 and thinking "Again! I've missed it again!", worry not - there's More4+1.

Looby Loo - worry not about your grammar - at least you know when it's lapsed unlikemany others! DId this person happen to be at LGW at some point, as I have heard a similar story and wonder if it is the same one.

What I did hear last year was a story about one of our number who happened to be on a Ryanair flight to somewhere that no one else flew to. Apparently there was an inflight emergency as there was concern that the landing gear would not lock. The cabin crew panicked - went completely to pieces from what I was told. In the end, our girl got up and yelled "I am British Airways Cabin Crew - if you do as I say I'll get you all out alive".The passengers were so relieved and she just took charge. The aircraft landed safely - but the crew were out of it completely. Our colleague was told by everyone that once they knew that she was they knoew that they had a chance as British Airways was reputable. I have no coroborration of this story
(probably mis-spelt) - but this was long before all this.

Ultimately the word is reputable. Would we call Ryanair reputable?

Suffice to say that there is a reason why Ryanair has gained this reputation. Their only variable for competitive advantage is price. And price is not proportional to profit. If you reduce the revenue on a given route, you will have to reduce costs until you reach a lower limit where safety prevents you going any lower. This eats up your contingency and then even minor problems become safety infringements.

Pucci
No my friend was initially long haul LHR crew then went into training at Cranebank, then FR and now full time trainer at Braincrank.. She's about 7 mths pregnant at the mo.... you can't miss her!!!
BTW I've got the programme on video if anyone wants to borrow it.

Also, as cabin crew with BA, my hours are very strictly controlled. The programme stated that it is only pilot hours that are limited at FR. Is it because FR is an airline (I use the term advisedly) registered in Eire?

Hi all and greetings from Australia!

As the programme is not airing down here as far as I'm aware, could someone please briefly exaplian what the issue was with the faulty slide?

I know for B737-200s the slide is engaged manually by clipping the girt-bar into a slot at the door sill. I'm not sure that there is any other indicator aside from the manual inspection. Was the aircraft in question a 737-800 and if so, is there a secondary indicator to show that the door is armed?

With thanks in advance,

L/M/E FF

Thanks - I think that I know who you mean - I have worked in recruitment in the past. You are quite right - we would never be allowed to work this way - and nor should they. Of course the picture is posed - and so what - I'd really held off about the crew - but as for the Captain (yes I saw the programme) he was the Senior pilot he was no Captain.

I can't say I'm oversly surprised about the lax behaviour. Very few people tend to do their jobs 100% every day. That being said, I would not expect BA, or even EasyJet to compromise safety and passenger comfort in such a way.

I have never flow Ryanair yet. This had nothing to do with their no frills attitude, purely because timings or whatever did not suit me at the time.

I will never fly with them now.

It would be interesting tho, to see the same thing done to BA or BMI.

Did 2 Ryanair returns last year - Jerez and Salzburg. Both flights were on-time, without incident and cheap. I'd rather base my decisions on experience rather than a heavily edited tv prog.

But that is precisely the point of LCC and you are a "standard" traveller. When everything goes well and to schedule, you cannot fault the value for money.

When anything out of the ordinary happens, then I'll stick to scheduled anyday.

You get what you pay for! Life may be a lottery but you can influence the odds depending on the choices you make.

Likewise. There was nothing that surprised me in the slightest in that programme, so I will continue to fly FR when it suits me.

As an aside, I run a business myself, and I dread to think what 6 months of secret filming in my place would drag up! :eek:

Hi
Well wait until you have to take additional baggae for business or when the flight is delayed for a long period of time or even just cancelled. Also try and make a change to your flight the night before or even try and change it to bring it a day forward.

Next once the cr*p has hit the fan, try and talk to someone at the company to make a complaint... its a joke.

Yep your lucky but you used as much as we had used them then you will see how bad they actually are.

Other things I did notice was the way that the were treated from lining up for checkin to actaully picking up their bags.

regards

As far as I could understand from the conversation, it was an indicator showing the pressure inside the compressed gas/air bottle that discharges to inflate the slide when it's triggered. The indicator was showing that the pressure was low, hence a concern that if the slide had been needed it might not have inflated correctly and might not have been usable.

The weakness about this complaint was that neither of the cabin crew concerned knew what the number one had done with the report. It would have been a much more cogent complaint if the reporter had gone to the captain personally and told him that the slide bottle looked like it was under pressure, and the captain had then done nothing.Your experience tells you nothing about what goes on underneath the facade presented to the passengers. It's those things that could make the difference between acceptable levels of safety and unacceptable levels of risk. The important things are almost never seen by the passengers during normal operations. But if you want to shut your eyes to the existence of potential problems when their existence is revealed, you're entirely free to do so.

Thanks Globaliser - that makes sense. Too many other questions - will have to wait and see if they ever screen it on cable here!

Cheers

L/M/E FF

Spottie types for too long
 

Sorry guys, just spent an hour writing a reply and the F***ing FT system has timed out on me so it has all been a waste of time. I will reply in the middle of the week.

A 'word' from the wise (or previously bitten!) write long replies in your favourite text editing program and paste after you're happy with it.

'Cos after the plane ditches, you'll be in the check in queue at the Pearly Gates, and you want to look your best when you suck up to St. Peter for that J class cloud ;)

I was chatting to a BA Purser last week and she happened to mention that she had been involved in a scary incident her first week of working as a Purser. Apparently the 737 starting filling with smoke in the cabin in mid-flight. With the passengers starting to panic, she said she was surprised herself that it didn't even occur to her to panic. She said that they had rehearsed dealing with emergencies so thoroughly during their training, that she went into "autopilot" and did what she was trained to do, checking everyone was ok, and strapped in, and reassuring people. As it happened, the plane made a "precautionary" landing and everyone was ok.

It is blatantly obvious that FR cabin crew wouldn't have a clue what to do in an emergency, that's assuming they didn't sleep through the whole thing.

It's for reasons like this that most of us prefer to travel with a BA-type airline rather than an FR-one.

I think it must be obvious to all but the dimmest of people, that if you are paying 99p, or even £9.99 for your flight, then cuts are being made everywhere, from not cleaning the sick off the seat to having zombie-like morons as cabin crew. It is clear that there are violations of rules and procedures going on all over the place.

Having never travelled FR, I can safely say that I have no intention of ever using them either. Anyone flying them must be aware of what kind of airline they are flying and is basically accepting the risks involved.

Since I started flying I have dealt with a few incidents, some large, some small.
Like the Purser that Smirnoff spoke to, panic is not an option. We spend lots of time in the simulators and mock ups during training going through what we would do in various situations, that our reactions are almost second nature.
Obviously, emergencies don't happen very often (thank God!!) But, little incidents like someone being ill, drunk or just scared of flying happen more or less daily, and I personally find that that's where my training really comes into its own.

"blatantly obvious" = your opinion = no actual proof.

Of course that's Smirnoff's opinion.
But, the point is, if the training is lacking , surely the response by the Cabin crew to any potential emergency situation will be lacking too.
I have worked for 4 airlines, 3 as Cabin Crew and, the simulator training that we do at BA in our 6 week initial training and each year is , without doubt the most valuable part of our checks. That is not part of the Ryanair course.

If that is missing, I would dread to think what would happen in a real dire situation.

Also, if a Cabin Crew member does not have the time to carry out the most basic of safety or security checks, which I doubt they can in a 25 min turnaround, I personally would worry about the safety and security of the flight.
Also, bear in mind, the Cabin Crew may do up to 6 flights per day. Between each flight they clean and security check the aircraft. Do they eat at any point? That would worry me also.

Are Ryanair safe.... I don't know... time will tell I suppose.

I agree with you 100000% I'm not a Ryanair fan (i've paid a bit more to fly BA or AZ) but would fly them ahead of IB if the route was the same. The FA's on IB have to be the rudest i've ever dealt with especially when I speak english to them (they don't realize that I speak almost fluent spanish also).