Ryanair flouting the law by evading tax refunds?
 

I was just looking at a flight between 2 points that only Ryanair fly to weigh up if it is worth it.

I noticed that the booking says "no tax", however surely this is not possible?

I also noticed when looking at the T&Cs that Ryanair say:

"All travel is offered in accordance with Ryanair General Conditions of Carriage for Passengers and Baggage.
All passengers must check-in online and bring their printed boarding passes to the airport.
Flight dates, times, routes and passenger names are changeable subject to applicable charges - please see Terms and Conditions of Travel for details.
All fares, airport taxes/fees and charges are non-refundable. On unused tickets - the only refundable element is the Government Tax, which is subject to a reasonable administration fee."

So basically, anyone who cancels their ticket now doesnt get the tax back either! Surely this is flounting the law now?? And if its not, then its only a matter of time before everyone else follows suit...

Which law says we are able to reclaim taxes on goods/services if the goods/services are not delivered?

(I know I'm tempting fate with the lawyers now :()

This was covered by the BBC a few weeks back, interestingly BA actually charges a higher fee to cover the administration of refund than Ryanair or EasyJet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10583101

What do you mean "a matter of time"? AF, KL, LH, LX, OS, LO, SN, AZ.. all have the same policy now.. no tax refund.. no fuel surcharge refund.. i am waiting for the European Commission or ECJ to come down heavy-handed on this too.. in due time..

As ever we'll give this a run here before relocating to Budget Travel or Travel Buzz.

Swanhunter
Moderator, BAEC

And chose not to refund the ridiculous fuel surcharge.. either it is a fuel surcharge or it isn't :(

On the basis of what, exactly? The only thing that I can conceive of would be the Unfair commercial practices directive or the unfair terms in consumer contract directive but it is far from obvious that a clear statement in the T&Cs that taxes are non-refundable would be in breach of either instrument.

As to the first question, it merely means that FR will absorb the cost of the taxes our of the fare you pay or, if your fare is lower than the taxes, will aborb the taxes themselves.

Government Tax, it is only paid if you are on the seat.

My point was more around the fact that Ryanair said there is no tax in the fare on any of the flights that i looked up, when there must be tax in the fare somewhere.

Simply put, the government taxes are only collected by the respected governments if there is my butt in that seat. If I don't fly, and the airline is stating it will be keeping those taxes, that invariably changes it from a tax to a part of the fare. And since that is NOT what it was intended to be, nor advertized to be at the time of purchase, it is therefore fraudulent to keep the taxes. In addition, fuel surcharges are advertized as a surcharge to cover the cost of higher fuel costs. In the EU, they are NOT yet required to be listed as part of the fare, but instead separately, unlike in the US. Therefore, I argue that if I do not travel, no fuel was used by me. Therefore, the fuel surcharge must also be returned to me if I do not fly as it was advertized to be a surcharge to offset the cost of fuel. If I don't use the fuel and this surcharge is NOT under the fare, then it must be returned.

Actaully, I think Ryanair quite carefully distinguishes between a Government Tax, which is refunds although charges an admin fee for the refund, and other assorted charges, which sometimes are 'disguised' as taxes, but are really fees. The fact that these fees are listed separately does not mean you get them back if you choose not to fly.

yes, you know that and I know that. But which law states that it has to be refunded?

(I agree that it is a ridiculous piece of nonsense and just another way for airlines to gouge us - but sadly, while immoral, its not illegal).

Perhaps FR use the refund admin fees of people who cancel to subsidise the fares without taxes.

My understanding is that HMRC collects the tax for each seat occupied but there is no stipulation of whether or not the tax is paid by the passenger or the airline.

In what way is it fraudulent? How does your choice not to fly (and therefore the tax not being incurred) suddenly make the amount you paid, part of the fare?

Even if it does, how is that fraudulent? All the airline is doing, is charging you an amount of money that is equal to the tax levied upon them by the Government. You are not the taxpayer at law, it is the airline. The airline is simply passing their costs on to you.

I'm afraid your line of argument is fallacious.

Your argument is that if you don't fly, no fuel is used and therefore the surcharge must be returned to you. On that basis, some proportion of the original fare was for fuel (hence a surcharge), would you expect to get a refund of that on a non-refundable fare if you didn't travel. Similarly, some part of your fare went towards providing you with a meal, drinks, ground handling etc; using your line of argument, they are also refundable?

It matters not one bit whether they are listed separately or as one lump sum. Your argument is that anything charged for, that you do not use, by not travelling, must be refunded.

Correct. HMRC levy the duty and the airline is liable to pay it. Whether or not the airline choses to charge the customer is a matter for them.

Similarly, there is no law that requires an airline to refund money charged to a customer that is 'earmarked' as tax.

As I put in my post above, you aren't paying the tax, the airline is. They aren't even doing so as your agent. They are the tax payer. There is no relationship between HMRC and the passenger.

If APD went down (pigs would fly, they choose not to do so now due to APD but I digress), then an airline could legitimately refuse to pass that saving on to you.

When APD goes up and airlines patrol check-in, cap in hand, to collect the difference, they do so under their conditions of carriage which enable them to charge if the tax increases. That's part of their contract with you and nothing to do with HMRC.

"Flounting"!!! Mods, for pity's sake please change the thread title.