cosiek

Hi,
I am new on the forum and wanted to ask you for advice on problematic flight Warsaw – Moscow – Dubai.

• Flight: SU2003
• Date: 28-Feb-2020
• Tickets were booked on official website of Aeroflot.

Details for problematic trip (expected timeline):

Warsaw – departure 19:50 (28-Feb) - SU 2003
Moscow – arrival 00:05 (29-Feb)
– departure 01:10 (29-Feb) - SU 0522
Dubai – arrival 07:35 (29-Feb)

Destination: over 5.000 km

Starting from the beginning, a departure from Warsaw was delayed for around 20-30 minutes, I believe. We landed in Moscow airport around 00:20 (29-Feb), what was in practice impossible for us to reach the gates (once we landed there was already notification about FINAL CALL) and next flight. We had to run through a huge airport. What is more, each person from personnel was asked by us to inform the airport service and captain that we are on the way and they should wait, as this was not our fault. No one was willing to help or they said they cannot call/reach anyone.

Once we finally reached the gates, we got information from a lady that we are late and the captain is preparing for take-off. It was maybe 00:50.

Once we got information that we cannot fly with this plane, we went to an information point with the complaint. We were informed that we need to send an official message through the website. They offered us the paid night in one of the airport hotels and voucher for food. What is more, we got for free next flight, which departure was at 08:30 (29-Feb) – flight SU 520. This way we get lost ~8h of vacation.

We get below response from Aeroflot on our complaint:

Kindly note that passenger air transportation is a complex operational process in which circumstances may arise that cause disruption of operation of the flight on schedule.

I would like to inform that ticket is the evidence of contract between a passenger and a carrier. By purchasing a ticket, a passenger confirms that he/she agrees with the terms of Conditions of carriage and the Rules of Aeroflot PJSC for Air Carriage of Passengers and Baggage. In accordance with p.10 of Conditions of carriage (you may see full text of Conditions at Aeroflot official website www.aeroflot.ru/ru-en/information/legal/contract) between an airlines and a passenger carrier shall make every effort to carry the passenger and his/her baggage within a reasonable period of time. The time indicated in the timetable and other documents is not guaranteed and does not form a part hereof. For the sake of flight safety/aviation security or subject to requests by any competent government authorities, the carrier shall have the right to cancel or delay the flight specified in the ticket as well as to change the aircraft type and/or carriage route, including without limitation changing or canceling landings at any destination indicated in the ticket. The flight schedule is subject to changes.

Here it should be noted that minimal time interval (the minimum connecting time) required for passengers to transfer from one flight to another depends on the departure/arrival terminal and the type of the next flight (international/domestic), as well as for airline employees for unloading/loading luggage. When booking air transportation, each passenger himself evaluates and decides how long it will take him to transfer from one flight to another, depending on a number of circumstances, such as the presence or absence of luggage, physical capabilities, awareness of the airport infrastructure, etc.

The investigation showed that the flight SU2003/28.02.2020 has arrived at Sheremetyevo airport with a small delay for 00h. 12 min. to terminal C due to arrangement of aircraft on the territory of Sheremetyevo (responsibility of airport).

Here it should be noted that arrival of the flight SU2003/28.02.2020 planned to be to the terminal D, and therefore the minimum connecting time with the flight SU 522 on February 29, 2020 should not be violated. At the same time, please note, that PJSC Aeroflot made all the necessary efforts and informed passengers about landing in terminal C.

Due to the obvious loss of connection in Moscow you were rebooked on the nearest flight to Dubai SU520/29.02.2020, and delivered to the destination, according to the ticket.

Aeroflot fulfilled all the delivery obligations and there are no bases for compensation and reimbursement as the conditions of the air carriage’ agreement were not violated from the part of the carrier.



Can you please confirm if from your perspective we should get any compensation for this situation?

Appreciate your response.

Regards,
Jakub

LondonElite

I believe you are due EUR600 per ticket under EC261 rules, though I expect SU will fight this and not pay you.

cosiek

Thank you. Will reply with such note in the complaint.

Regards,
Jakub

bankops

SU2003 Arrived/Landed in SVO 9 minutes late but 37 minutes delay at the gate.due to taxi times
SU0522 actually left the gate 10 minutes early but departed late due to taxi times.
Both flights had taxi times of 25-30min.

There was weather approaching the airport that could affect approach times, but not taxi times.
SA 28/02/2020 23:00->METAR UUEE 282300Z 23005MPS 5000 -SHSN SCT018CB 00/M02 Q1000 RESHSN R24L/150045 R24R/150045 NOSIG=
SA 28/02/2020 22:30->METAR UUEE 282230Z 24006MPS 9999 SCT029 00/M03 Q0999 R24L/150045 R24R/150045 NOSIG=
SA 28/02/2020 22:00->METAR UUEE 282200Z 24006MPS 9999 FEW020 00/M03 Q0999 R24L/150045 NOSIG=
SA 28/02/2020 21:30->METAR UUEE 282130Z 24006MPS 9999 FEW043 00/M03 Q0999 R24L/150045 NOSIG=
SA 28/02/2020 21:00->METAR UUEE 282100Z 25006MPS 9999 FEW040 00/M03 Q0999 R24L/150045 R24R/150045 NOSIG=

I would assume that SU will simply state that the airport operations caused them to land on the opposite side of the airport from their terminal and resulted in significant delays due to extended taxi times. Thus, force majeur and they are considered responsible for compensation.

These facts aside, booking a legal minimum transfer in SVO, in winter, is a recipe for disaster. Plain and simple.

LondonElite

Agreed. think they will claim force majeure. Too bad, so sad, they will say.

Often1

The SU note suggests a delay reason which is not an "extraordinary circumstance" and accordingly OP would be entitled to EUR 600 per passenger. However, SU will not pay this without a court order and thus, unless OP is prepared to pursue SU in court for the sums involved, this is unlike to be paid.

I would send a very simple note to SU stating that the reasons stated in its email are not an "extraordinary circumstance" under EC 261/2004 and that thus SU must pay EUR 600 per person. Do not make this longer and focus only on what matters.

SU is unlikely to pay and you are likely to wind up having to sue under EC 261/2004 and be prepared for a lengthy process. Only you can determine whether it is worth it.

As a word of caution for others, the MCT for this connection was 1:00 because it was Terminal C. All other I-I connections at SVO are 1:30 - 3:00 hours. At 1:05, this connection was barely over the MCT. While that does not excuse SU from paying compensation, one should generally not book connections such as this as they are susceptible to exactly what happened, e.g., a minimal delay caused a misconnect. Put simply, this connection was within MCT, but well outside SCT (Sensible Connection Time).

bankops

I didn't read SU's response in detail. Just skimmed. They are stating that the OP's flight was sent to Terminal C and his departure was from D. Minimum connection for D Int'l.-->D Int'l. is 60 min but B/C Int'l.-->D Int'l. is 90 min. OP wa ticketed for 65 min. Aeroflot is correctly claiming force majeur that due to Airport Operations the OP no longer had a legal transfer. I had the exact same thing last year on a transfer to Sochi. The OP should also understand that access to D is first via automated gate. The time at which they arrived in Terminal C would have already been too late for the automated door before security in D. They had zero chance of catching their flight regardless of who was called since it is the airport that operated these automated doors.

cosiek

Thank you Guys for a really professional approach. I needed time to understand all acronyms you used and phrases.
So summing up:

1. Each of us - me and my wife - should get compensation in EUR600, because of EC261/2004 rules.
2. Flight SU2003 had a delay because of the long taxi times (over 30 mins). It was not caused by any "extraordinary circumstance". Only operational problems - not my problem from the client perspective.
3. The flight going to Dubai (SU0522) actually left the gate 10 minutes earlier - so also this advantage on our side.
4. Aeroflot reserved 1 h connection between arrival and departure terminal D and it was MCT (Minimum Connection Time). However, still, it was not SCT (Sensible Connection Time).

What made the situation worse, our arrival terminal was changed from D to C, what made it impossible to get on time for the next plane. Expected time for going from arrival terminal C to departure D is over 1h.

I have an additional question:
-> I found a lot of websites/companies where they are saying that they do not take any money for running the case unless it is won. Do you know what is general % of their income from the won case?

Generally, I feel that in such case, once:
a. we got an offer, which was having high probability not getting on time for next flight
b. risky run during wintertime through the airport in Moscow
c. not reliable and plain answer from the Aeroflot on compensation letter
it is worth to start the case.

Thank you very much once again.
Regards,
Jakub

hessbo

Sorry you missed your connection too - SVO is a terrible airport to transfer, causing many lost connections. The addition of terminals B and C as well as the new runway have only made things worse.

Booking a long connection is also very inconvenient due to the poor facilities at the airport. For many Asia-Europe routes, choosing any but the fastest connection means an overnight stay in Moscow.

In my experience,
- Most online claim platforms charge around 25% of won cases, 0 if lost. However, they often accept Aeroflot's excuses, even when they appear phony (contradict OP's observations). This reduces the platforms' expenses. I still use them a couple of times per year.
- All airlines try not to pay compensation. So far I've only received compensation after going through online claims platforms or government run institutions (for Iberia).
- Aeroflot have become better at rebooking passengers without additional charges when the connection was lost, if the actual time between flights is below MCT.

CPH-Flyer

technically speaking, you may be due for compensation under the rules. Though rather unlikely to collect without any legal efforts. The agencies typically take 25% of the awards, and they will initially give a very quick feedback on whether the case has merit to pursue. In this case, I'd just hand it over to one of these agencies, and see what they can make of it. Fighting with Aeroflot in Moscow, as I am sure their European offices will divert your requests and contacts there, is just too much of an uphill battle for a normal person.

fifty_two

to be deleted

fifty_two

100% true.

Regardless of what aeroflot say or sell , i dont recommend anyone to book ANY connection in SVO under 3 hours

From experience i can say anything can go wrong , and as you saw , you can lose a lot of time during each step of the transfer. And if you miss your flight , the staff might find all reasons to avoid helping you and you might have to pay by yourself for next flight

Yes it is worth to start it , if the 3rd party you contact see that the case is valid, but not for the reasons you are listing here

a. They respected the MCT of the airport.
b. They are not responsible for the weather and no one forced you to run
c. Their answers are carefully designed , so "not reliable and plain answer" is not valid in a court

cosiek

Hi All once again,
I got following response from company after my message:
----

The flight SU2003/28.02.2020 has arrived at Sheremetyevo airport with a small delay for 00h. 12 min. to terminal C due to arrangement of aircraft on the territory of Sheremetyevo (responsibility of airport). The reason of flight delay was also caused by provided sanitarium epidemiological measurements to passengers of associative flight SU2002 from Moscow at the airport of Warsaw.



So please be informed that in order for the Carrier to be able to reimburse its Client in accordance with the European Commission Regulation 261/2004, it is of utmost importance that all the terms stipulated in the Regulation are observed and there are no legal grounds for rejection of such reimbursement.

In accordance with p.14 of the Regulation obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances may, in particular, occur in cases of political instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned, security risks, unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that affect the operation of an operating air carrier.

In accordance with p.15 of Regulation extraordinary circumstances should be deemed to exist where the impact of an air traffic management decision in relation to a particular aircraft on a particular day gives rise to a long delay, an overnight delay, or the cancellation of one or more flights by that aircraft, even though all reasonable measures had been taken by the air carrier concerned to avoid the delays or cancellations.

In accordance with legal practice of the European court of justice, the extraordinary circumstance is when a problem occurs as a result of events, which by their nature or reason, are not part of the normal activities of the airline and that the carrier actually cannot manage.

Therefore, since the reason of the delay did not depend on the carrier and Aeroflot was unable to prevent the flight delay, the conditions described above (the reason of the delay) are interpreted as emergency circulation based on the p.14, 15 of Regulation and legal practice of the European court of justice and the reimbursement of your requirements is subject for rejection.

Once more, accept our sincere apologies. We are sorry that gave you reason to be disappointed.

I believe no other option is here, apart from legal case.

what do you think?

Regards,
Cosiek

fifty_two

stop wasting your time and reading the bullsh*t from the airline

Contact an online claim company , easy to find by searching in google

They will study your case quickly and if , and only if you can get compensation they will handle it and take a percentage

if not then it will be dropped cause it mean you can't claim anything

cosiek

Thank you very much!