How do you behave in another religion's place of worship?
#106
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 55,189
Originally Posted by SJC1K
I'm truly surprised that rives21 feels that standing is more respectful than sitting when others are kneeling. I've always remained seated, scooting or leaning forward so as not to inconvenience anyone kneeling behind me, and I've been told by others that that's the appropriate thing to do. Standing is just much more visible and therefore, I would think, disruptive. I'd gladly stand instead if I understood that to be more acceptable, but I've never heard anyone else suggest that.
In my parish of the Episcopal church, we do religious calisthenics it seems. Kneel to pray, sit to listen to the readings and sermon, stand to sing hymns and recite the creeds. Sometimes it's just too confusing for visitors so we are very accepting that we are told that we can't sit still.
#107
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,512
Originally Posted by Analise
In my parish of the Episcopal church, we do religious calisthenics it seems. Kneel to pray, sit to listen to the readings and sermon, stand to sing hymns and recite the creeds. Sometimes it's just too confusing for visitors so we are very accepting that we are told that we can't sit still.
Originally Posted by SJC1k
Of course, if the only acceptable choices are kneeling or not being present, I would not be present.
#108
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: BOS
Programs: Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite, UA MM Lifetime Gold, BA Silver
Posts: 451
Okay, several of the recent posters have obviously not read through the entire thread. Jakebeth, your question about how often I see people sitting at Mass has been asked and answered above. And to the poster who asked why I think that standing during the Consecration is acceptable, again please see above. Also, if anyone would like to see it in practice, the Marsh Chapel at Boston University holds Catholic Mass three times on Sunday's and everyone stands throughout the Consecration (no kneelers at this chapel).
Also, I'd like to note that I am in complete agreement with Kokonutz (sp?) who indicated that he is happy to see virtually anyone in church. I agree with the welcoming, warm-hearted sentiment. In fact, no where in this thread have I advocated closing the doors. Finally, I also agree with the notion that the Mass can be a very personal experience and that one shouldn't worry too much about what the guy in the back row is doing. I completely agree with that too. I don't worry too much about it either. I just happened to mention my thoughts on the topic on this thread and many people have asked questions about it since, which I've tried to honestly answer.
Also, I'd like to note that I am in complete agreement with Kokonutz (sp?) who indicated that he is happy to see virtually anyone in church. I agree with the welcoming, warm-hearted sentiment. In fact, no where in this thread have I advocated closing the doors. Finally, I also agree with the notion that the Mass can be a very personal experience and that one shouldn't worry too much about what the guy in the back row is doing. I completely agree with that too. I don't worry too much about it either. I just happened to mention my thoughts on the topic on this thread and many people have asked questions about it since, which I've tried to honestly answer.
#109
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5
Respect
I think AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT CONFLICT with your own religious beliefs, following *custom* is a good idea. Where there is a conflict, silence or inaction seem to be the best course.
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke. Likewise, a Muslim woman attending a Catholic service would still need to wear a burka.
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke. Likewise, a Muslim woman attending a Catholic service would still need to wear a burka.
#110
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: From and of Boston.
Posts: 4,973
Originally Posted by Numbskull
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke.
An adult male who enters a synagogue or attends a Jewish service wears a kippah (yarmulke), and to do otherwise is a sign of disrespect to the community, because they see it as a sign of disrespect to the Lord. You do not become Jewish by wearing a kippah. You could wear a kippah every waking moment for 50 years and that would not make you Jewish.
If your beliefs or conscience would prohibit you from wearing a kippah, I believe that you should avoid going to the service.
#111
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Toronto
Programs: BA Gold, LH Sen,
Posts: 76
``A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke. Likewise, a Muslim woman attending a Catholic service would still need to wear a burka.
Your logic is slightly flawed if I understand your meaning. The burka is of religious importance to the Muslim woman who wears it, but the kippah is not of religious importance to the Christian, he wears it out of respect to others.
Is it not common Christian belief to respect other people and customs?
Your logic is slightly flawed if I understand your meaning. The burka is of religious importance to the Muslim woman who wears it, but the kippah is not of religious importance to the Christian, he wears it out of respect to others.
Is it not common Christian belief to respect other people and customs?
Last edited by bbybear; Dec 15, 2005 at 6:23 am
#113
Join Date: May 2005
Location: tlv
Programs: AA Platinum, LY Matmid
Posts: 804
Originally Posted by Numbskull
I think AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT CONFLICT with your own religious beliefs, following *custom* is a good idea. Where there is a conflict, silence or inaction seem to be the best course.
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke. Likewise, a Muslim woman attending a Catholic service would still need to wear a burka.
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke. Likewise, a Muslim woman attending a Catholic service would still need to wear a burka.
To the best of my knowledge the Pope and all the Cardinals wear skullcaps for the same reason
Do they dishonor their religion?
A Christian wearing a skullcap at a Jewish service is just a person showing respect in a house of worship
#114
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Midwest
Programs: AA, UA, DL, LUV, SPG, HHonors, Avis, Hertz
Posts: 3,033
Originally Posted by rives21
Okay, several of the recent posters have obviously not read through the entire thread. Jakebeth, your question about how often I see people sitting at Mass has been asked and answered above.
#115
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Yiron, Israel
Programs: Bates Motel Plat
Posts: 68,901
Originally Posted by Numbskull
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke. Likewise, a Muslim woman attending a Catholic service would still need to wear a burka.
1. A yamulke had a specific religious significance (as does, say, a cross).
or
2. Christianity requires you to pray with a bare head and you intended to pray at the Jewish service.
Neither, however, is the case. A yamulke has no particular meaning at all. It is a hat, nothing more. Any hat, from a fedora to a baseball cap, will serve the same purpose -- showing respect for the synagogue by following its tradition of not being there with an uncovered head.
Christianity does not require you to pray uncovered. In fact, at many outdoor ceremonies hats are worn by men. Moreover, as pointed out earlier, many church authorities wear hats, often identical to yamulkes, during services. The idea of removing your hat upon entering a church is not a religious requirement but a Western civil tradition -- you do the same in any public building from a courthouse to a restaurant.
#116
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,103
Originally Posted by bbybear
``A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke. Likewise, a Muslim woman attending a Catholic service would still need to wear a burka.
Your logic is slightly flawed if I understand your meaning. The burka is of religious importance to the Muslim woman who wears it, but the kippah is not of religious importance to the Christian, he wears it out of respect to others.
Is it not common Christian belief to respect other people and customs?
Your logic is slightly flawed if I understand your meaning. The burka is of religious importance to the Muslim woman who wears it, but the kippah is not of religious importance to the Christian, he wears it out of respect to others.
Is it not common Christian belief to respect other people and customs?
Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 15, 2005 at 3:20 pm
#117
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Programs: UA/CO(1K-PLT), AA(PLT), QR, EK, Marriott(PLT), Hilton(DMND)
Posts: 9,538
As a muslim, when I am at a church service, either at christmas or when someone has passed away, I say muslim prayers at the same time the vicar or minister leads the congregation in a christian prayer. I say my prayers in the same manner as the congregation says theirs. So, if they kneel to pray, I do too.
GUW is right. Only a muslim woman who chooses to cover her head, upper body or entire body would do so in church as she would in most public places. Most muslim women I know don't cover themselves (with a hijab, chador or burka that is) in public so they would attend church "as is".
GUW is right. Only a muslim woman who chooses to cover her head, upper body or entire body would do so in church as she would in most public places. Most muslim women I know don't cover themselves (with a hijab, chador or burka that is) in public so they would attend church "as is".
#118
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: WAS
Posts: 872
Sorry to join the discussion so late into the game. I'm an Orthodox Jew, and have travelled Europe when I was younger with my family, and more recently on my own to Asia, having studied Japanese history and culture exstensively. I also have a continued interest in some branches of comparative religion.
With my family on trips, I've been to famous Catholic and Protestant churches, where we'd be respectful, remove head covering where need be, but never participate in any sort of service or ritual.
In Japan, China, Thailand, and Singapore I've been in many Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines (and one Hindu temple). I will remove my shoes when neccesary (I don't think I've ever had to do it for religious reasons in those places) and I try not to give them any money beyond admission costs (tho I did pick up a few souveniers in some places). I don't do any sort of bowing, kneeling, clapping (wakes spirits up in Shinto), or joss-stick burning. For me, observing (watching) ritual and being respectful is suitable behavior.
I was really upset when on one trip to Japan a friend who was a bit more irreverent (and also an Orthodox Jew) decided to bow down in jest at a Shinto shrine. I don't think anyone saw, but it was typical "Loud American" behavior.
I would probably still enter churches, but I don't think I would be comfortable attending a religious ceremony in a church, especially Catholic. There are arguments in Jewish law about Protestant churches and mosques not being considered "idol worship," but Catholicism would be a harder sell. I don't mean that out of any disrespect, its just how my belief system views others.
Now, all that being said, it would be even a harder sell to say Shinto shrines and certainly Buddhist temples aren't "idol worship," But I guess given that the histories of those religions and mine aren't as intertwined, I'm more comfortable wandering in to one of those when ceremonies are going on.
I hope this wasn't offensive, just trying to inform.
With my family on trips, I've been to famous Catholic and Protestant churches, where we'd be respectful, remove head covering where need be, but never participate in any sort of service or ritual.
In Japan, China, Thailand, and Singapore I've been in many Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines (and one Hindu temple). I will remove my shoes when neccesary (I don't think I've ever had to do it for religious reasons in those places) and I try not to give them any money beyond admission costs (tho I did pick up a few souveniers in some places). I don't do any sort of bowing, kneeling, clapping (wakes spirits up in Shinto), or joss-stick burning. For me, observing (watching) ritual and being respectful is suitable behavior.
I was really upset when on one trip to Japan a friend who was a bit more irreverent (and also an Orthodox Jew) decided to bow down in jest at a Shinto shrine. I don't think anyone saw, but it was typical "Loud American" behavior.
I would probably still enter churches, but I don't think I would be comfortable attending a religious ceremony in a church, especially Catholic. There are arguments in Jewish law about Protestant churches and mosques not being considered "idol worship," but Catholicism would be a harder sell. I don't mean that out of any disrespect, its just how my belief system views others.
Now, all that being said, it would be even a harder sell to say Shinto shrines and certainly Buddhist temples aren't "idol worship," But I guess given that the histories of those religions and mine aren't as intertwined, I'm more comfortable wandering in to one of those when ceremonies are going on.
I hope this wasn't offensive, just trying to inform.
#119
Original Member, Ambassador: External Miles and Points Resources
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Digital Nomad Wandering the Earth - Currently in PALMYRA, PA, USA
Posts: 58,512
Originally Posted by Pureboy
I would probably still enter churches, but I don't think I would be comfortable attending a religious ceremony in a church, especially Catholic. There are arguments in Jewish law about Protestant churches and mosques not being considered "idol worship," but Catholicism would be a harder sell. I don't mean that out of any disrespect, its just how my belief system views others.
Now, all that being said, it would be even a harder sell to say Shinto shrines and certainly Buddhist temples aren't "idol worship," But I guess given that the histories of those religions and mine aren't as intertwined, I'm more comfortable wandering in to one of those when ceremonies are going on.
I hope this wasn't offensive, just trying to inform.
Now, all that being said, it would be even a harder sell to say Shinto shrines and certainly Buddhist temples aren't "idol worship," But I guess given that the histories of those religions and mine aren't as intertwined, I'm more comfortable wandering in to one of those when ceremonies are going on.
I hope this wasn't offensive, just trying to inform.
As to whether Catholics engage in idol worship is, of course, a matter of perspective, but I strongly encourage you to extend your comparisons of religions and religious ceremonies by attending a Catholic Mass. Hopefully you will discover that the idea that Catholics worship idols is little more than an ignorant stereotype. But even if you don't, you'll still be exposed to ancient (well, not quite so ancient as yours) traditions, customs and what I consider to be an empirically beautiful ceremony. ^
#120
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbskull
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke.
---
How about at the funeral of a Jewish colleague or friend? Same story?
What dishonor or harm can come from one showing respect and deferring to a custom? I agree with Dov and others that there is no dishonor.
Mark
Originally Posted by Numbskull
A Christian attending a Jewish service dishonors himself by wearing a yamulke.
---
How about at the funeral of a Jewish colleague or friend? Same story?
What dishonor or harm can come from one showing respect and deferring to a custom? I agree with Dov and others that there is no dishonor.
Mark