rives21

Before Vactican II in the 1960's, I believe that people kneeled when receiving communion and they received it directly on the tongue. I've attended one of these latin pre-Vatican II Masses only once. Though, I was born in the 1970's, there are still some places where this older Mass is celebrated today.

There were many changes to the Mass after Vactican II and I think that this was perhaps one of the changes - allowing people to receive the host while standing and in their hands (as opposed to directly on the tongue). Of course both methods are still available today.

By the way, I've heard from a European friend who attended a Catholic school, that a long time ago in Europe, people would stand during the entire Mass. He said that chairs were not commonly provided for the congregation back then.

rives21

Also, I'd like to address the subject of "kneelers". My personal feeling on them is that when they are provided, it's a nice benefit. However, if they are not available or not comfortable, I don't mind it all. And I know this is a very personal opinion/experience, but I've spent time kneeling in quiet prayer for much longer periods of time than a normal Mass would require and so, I know I can "handle it." Also, I take inspiration from witnessing "older" Catholics kneel for similar long periods of time.

Jakebeth

I didn't mean to suggest that it's a common occurence. Rather, that as badatz notes, it's unusual and rare. (i.e. the Yom Kippur 'one-shot-deal') But that's really my point. Anything remotely resembling bowing is something not taken lightly.

GUWonder

I try to go during non-worship times of the day/week/year. And when that isn't possible or contradicts with my interests, I try to be discreet in anything I do (or don't do). To that purpose, I generally prefer being closer to the sides/doors/back (or as far as possible from "starting points") but within sight of the main activity.

ejmelton

First, I'd like to join with the compliments on this thread. As has been noted, religion is a tough issue to discuss without hurting someone's (or everyone's) feelings. There's a lot of respect here. I wish that we could figure out how to get it from FT to the rest of the world.

My personal opinion on the "speech" (I assume that it was a homily) is that the person giving it is ignorant, at best, and/or deeply prejudiced, at worse. None of us know "who is damned". (Although it could be argued that the one who makes those comments might be closer than a lot of us. ) We don't decide who is saved, God does.

As a Roman Catholic I do believe that my church is the most faithful to the teaching of Jesus. If I didn't I would not be RC. At the same time, I would be very sad if I felt that my Lutheran relatives or the children in China were denied heaven because of their ancestors did not convert to Catholicism. I would also find it difficult to believe in a just and loving God who used "technicalities" to keep people out of heaven. (I do believe that it is possible for someone to "lose" heaven by rejecting what they know is the teaching of God, regardless of how they learned that teaching.)

Going back to Dovster's original post on "posture", at the funeral that I attended Friday the priest made it easy. At the beginning of the Eucharistic Prayer (the kneeling part of the mass) he invited everyone to "either kneel or sit". Since this was a funeral of a military man killed in action there were many noncatholics there and the priest's instructions avoided the quandry that Dovster opened with. I found it to be a very practical and supportive gesture.

rkt10

I agree that it was practical. I just wish more priests would explain to people that receiving Communion is not open to all present... but rather to Catholics (in the state of Grace, that is) only. Catholics believe (know?) that the Eucharest is, in fact, Christ. And receiving Christ into our own bodies is the most sacred of the sacraments.

So many people think it's no big deal, but it really is.
Rita

Jakebeth

Heh heh. He said prostating. Heh heh.

Ok, that was juvenille. I know. I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. I think if you go back to my original post, you'll see that I deliberately avoided using any derivative of "prostrate" (in Hebrew) just so as to avoid this problem!

Seriously, No harm intended badatz. I just thought it was funny.

lili

Yes, this is a big deal, not to be taken lightly.

This discussion is extremely interesting to me as an agnostic/atheist who seems to spend an inordinate amount of time in various church ceremonies. I really respect each person's feelings, but have to walk a fine line to not offend my own principles.

I used to just go along and do whatever the people around me were doing. Somehow in Protestant churches taking a sip of grape juice and passing on the tray seemed easier than upsetting the people around you. In college I figured out I could just pass the tray without partaking because I heard a preacher say something like "anyone who has experienced Jesus is welcome to join us in ...." Thanks for the clarification I could be Baptist in a Methodist church and still participate. But to me that was a message of freedom that I no longer had to pretend. Just pass the tray.

My first real horror was an Easter Sunday Episcopalian service at the Falls Church (VA) church for which the town was named, where people went to the altar for wine and stuff. I was there providing support for a friend whose mother had just died. What to do?? As I'm about to whisper to my friend for help, I notice she has fainted! Saved again! Jiggle her around a bit and haul her out tromping on the calves of the kneeling latecomers who were stuck in the folding chairs in the back of this overcrowded service. At least I know how to apologize well, and did a lot of that.

Next Episcopalian service, Easter again, with three girlfriends, some wise old woman in the pew behind us figures out we don't know what the heck is going on. When our row was about to go to the alter for communion, she prods us in the back with her cane and says something like "Now you go up there and and kneel." And we did. My First Communion, so to speak.

At one time I spent a a year learning from a Catholic priest and attending daily 6 am mass, but it was quite clear that I was studying and learning, and taking Communiion was not acceptable at this point, and I never felt uncomfortable and wondered what the people around me were thinking that I didn't participate. (Not that there were a lot of people around at 6 am Tuesday..)

Then Hindus. According to the Indian friend I traveled with you just make a donation and they bless you. No requirements, no expectations. It's how they make their living. Kinda cool. I liked the fact nothing was required of me, but she was very devout and every temple was a different experience for her.

Just some random thoughts on a subject that has always bothered me. Thanks for the forum.

badatz

No harm taken, it was my mistake

Analise

You're heading into Omni-land, Rita. The Roman Catholics are not the only denomination who know that the Eucharist IS the body and blood of Jesus. The Anglican worship centers itself around the Eucharist because it is the body and blood of Jesus, not some representation of it. The Russian Orthodox Church does as well.

rkt10

Analise, I absolutely agree. Matter of fact, the Episcopalian Mass is so much like the pre-Vatican II Mass that it almost makes me cry for joy. The reason I wrote my comment is to let non-Catholic readers/posters know that it isn't okay to receive Communion at a Catholic Mass unless you're in good-standing as a Catholic.

I have lots of acquaintences who are Catholics who don't think it's a big deal. And I've met lots of non-Catholics who think it's a courtesy to receive Communion at a funeral or a wedding, for example.

Rita

Jakebeth

This might be a good place to insert a question -

I've noticed at Catholic services that many people go up for Communion, but cross their arms to signify that they can't take it for one reason or another.

As a Jewish person, I've stayed in the pews rather than go up, but I'm wondering if there's a significance to going up, without taking Communion. Is it to get a blessing? Another reason?

Analise

Rita, if you are ever in New York, it would be a pleasure to introduce my church to you and perhaps worship together. My husband tells me again and again that my church's liturgy is more "RC" than his own church.....except that we aren't Papists. That of course is an enormous exception. Our service is very much pre-Vatican II. Maybe it will bring back some nice memories for you.

Also, there are Catholic parishes in the RC Dicoese of New York whose worship in fact IS pre-Vatican II. I know of one, at least: The Church of St. Vincent Ferrer on Lexington Avenue b/w 65th & 66th Streets.

empedocles

It is to get a blessing. I'll only do it if invited by the officiant (I did so when I attended Xmas Eve services at Westminster Abbey, for instance), otherwise I remain sitting.

Analise

And Westminster Abbey is Anglican, not Catholic. The Anglican clergy (Episcopalians in the US) invite everyone to the altar. For those not Christian, they too can come to the altar to receive a blessing. The priests reiterate this invitation during the holidays when parishioners often have guests accompanying them to church.