Thumper

I've already testified and began the love fest of olfactory delight known as Schmulkie's ribs.

Couple of comments, being a "refugee" from Conservative Judaism myself. In another twenty years I do not believe there will be any relevence to the term "Conservadox". If you attended JTS (Conservative Rabbinic school in NYC) in the late sixties and early seventies, your daily life was almost identical to that at YU. It was only in the years followinghte Yom Kippur War that Consevative took the, um, unusual, turn it took. Sincethen I find it difficult to relateto the movement, and in fact have been a member of an Orthodox COngregation for over twenty years. I believe, and I'm speakingfor myself, that many are as conflicted as I am that when people hear "JTS" they will associate it with the JTS of today. So like many, the wayto qualify isto use the rediculous term "Conservadox".

As to Reform Hechsher as well as Conservative "hechsher". Kashrut is like every other aspect of our belief. Orthodox believes that the way it is written is the way to go. The othertwo movements, to varyingdegrees, and with different "qualifications" believe that it is within our power to changethe laws, a logical extension of the belief that you cannot simply choose what to obey, you can changethe law to make it more observable.

So as I do on many other topics, I'll agree with Craz. And even more, his description of Kashrut B'Aaretz is spot on.

Happy Hanukah all.

Oh, and since we are tearing up the less observant, why do Reform Jews celebrate Hanukah? Don't they ever learn the real end to the Hanukah story? You know, the part where Judah Macabee, in an effort to save the future of Judaism, kills all the Reform Jews (Sadducees)?

craz

Ok a few disagreements with what you wrote;

1) as for Hotels The Renaissance in Jerusalem has a Rabbunut MeHadrain and one can Check-in or out on Sbabbos the Lobby Lounge is closed but depending the time of year one can order RoomService but no Hot Food. I dont know too many people who wouldnt Hold and Eat there. the Sheraton Plaza in JRS changes from time to time lately its been questionable, but at 1 time the Dining Room, Lobby and Milk restaurant had a R. Medhadrain while the Meat Restaurant didnt (I believe this is still closed and has been for many years now).

I dont know of a single Hotel in JRS that has a Badatz Hechshar. I dont even think that The old Mercaz had it, it was and still is 1 of the few Hotels any where in Israel that is so called Closed on Shabbos = no checking in or out. The Aristin in Tiberis is a No in or Out Place, but then its out of the way from the Main area so I guess if youre not Religious you wouldnt be caught dead there , maybe even if you are. Netanya has the Galli Zanz.

At time to time different Hotels are taken over for a specific time period that sometimes will have a so called Badatz for that week or so, but if the entire Hotel isnt taken over there will be Check-in & out on Shabbos etc.


2) My point in an above post was there is now a Hecksher that a Conservative Group gives to Places that are open and violates the Shabbos by cooking etc, but they say all that they do is affirm that the food itself is Kosher. someone who doesnt know what is what wont beable to tell the difference, as it is I cant tell who is who even with the places that are Closed on Shabbos.


3) The main reason that the Reg Rabbanut isnt acceptable isnt not so much as you claim, but instead cause its a Political Group where getting a job has nothing to do with What you Know but Whom you Know. Also each Citys Rabbanut MUST accept any other cities, so when it comes to things like Trumah and Missar it becomes touchy if it was done and if Yes Correctly. Also theres the Frozen Meat problem. It has or at least had very little to do with if they gave their Hechshar to a Hotel that was open on Shabbos , and alot more with the dealings of the Group.

then of cause its a matter of $$$$, as each different group grew in #s over the years they started to open up their pown Bais dins so as to better keep the $$$ within the group, OK they will say cause we have different requirements. But the so called Badatz has lost alot of its Sting that it had 20-30 yrs ago, as more and more different groups go on their own. And the Badatz was basically a from 1 group themselves. Its ALL about $$$ and Politics- Period.

the Badatz is not Only a Hechshar as are most Hechsharim in the US but a whole way of Life that tries to control those who are in some way attached to it.

I was always amazed with whatever product carried the Badatz Heckshar, it supposely had the best Hechshar, cost the most , and by FAR was the WORST Quality . Over the past few yrs that has been changing Only cause theres another Heckshar usually on the product as well and the companys want to beable to Export the stuff and with what they were producing they couldnt have sold a single item if they tried outside of Israel where there was reliable Hecksharim on very good quality products.

still cant get a decent Glatt Meal on a flight leaving Israel. It is a pity.

craz

Thumper, I wasnt trying to make out that a Religious Jew is Perfect and if youre not Religious then you are less of a Person (Jew).

Its very possible that a Relgious Person will end up in Gehanim (Hell) and a non-Religious person will end up in Heaven. PERIOD.

I do see a non-religious person who has a Jewish Mother as being a Jew who doesnt believe in Judaism. Madaline Albright who as a child was converted to whatever branch it was, is still a Jew since she was born a Jew and will be accountable accordingly. Those who never knew wont be held accountable for not returning maybe for something else.

Before the Flames start, I NEVER heard of a Protestant Roman Catholic, or a Lurthern Roman Catholic, they really have their own Religion although they still believe in JC. While low and behold when it comes to Judaism each so called branch sees its self as being Religious. Instead of being a non-practicing Jew they see themselves as Religious within their own movement, nothing new its happened throughout the ages. thats why today the so called Reform movement to get its memembership #s up there , decided that as long as either Parent is Jewish so are thekids if thats what the parents want. I guess G-D doesnt have a say in this or anything else.

Sort of like the problem the Mormons had a number of yrs ago, where if they didnt start to allow Blacks and other Non-whites into their Church they stood to lose all Govt Funding and Benefits. Then ALL of a Sudden the Leader came out 1 day and said G-D appeared to me last night in a Prophecy and told me that hence forth its permissable to accept Non-whites and Glory have it they didnt lose that Govt funding , how Benevolvent is the Almighty, I ask ya.


Unfortunately Kashrus has become a Billion $$$ Industry which means that along with all the good will also come along those who will do fast ones to make a quick $.

Now Im sure we have already crossed over into Omni Space so I will try and remain on the topic.

salut0

re London, there's Blooms' which has sadly gone down greatly in quality in recent years (not to mention that the East End branch closed down).
Otherwise, there's Rubens on Baker Street in the centre of town -- not great but we don't have much choice.

More up to date information is available in the Time Out annual Restaurant guide (for London at least -- perhaps something similar exists for other cities too)

badatz

1. My use of the term "Mehadrin Hechscher" was meant to mean a Mehadrin Hechscher NOT given by the local Rabbinut but by an outside organization.
I agree with you that there are numerous hotels such as the Renaissance and I think the Sheraton Plaza in Jerusalem which are Rabbinut Mehadrin but do business to varying degrees on Shabbat

3. My use of the term BADATZ in the thread refered to all private ultra orthodox supervisory organizations and not only the EDA CHAREDIT of JERUSALEM which was commonly refered to by all as the BADATZ.
True money, power and jobs are involved in all the organizations especially the new ones, but I do believe that the basic reason for starting them was a dissatisfaction with the level of Rabbinut supervision as a whole countrywide. There are of course exceptions such as the Rabbinut of Jerusalem, Rehovot, Petach Tikva and Zefat which are pretty much accepted countrywide even by the ultra orthodox but once the people started asking for "BADATZ" they ask for it all over

BTW my name on this site has nothing to do with my religious persuasions as to this thread

craz

Back in the 70s Badatz meant the EDA as they were the Only ones that used the term. Now everyone uses it and it does cause alot of Confusion, since both Azkenize and Sefradi Heckshars use the term and not everyone will rely on both, Especially when it comes to Meat.

I dont know if it was done in order to sort of fool someone or to inform. I can see it both ways.

badatz

The term BADATZ is an acronym for BEIT DIN TZEDEK or roughtly translated Court of Justice
You are corrrect that the first one on the Kashrut scene was the EDA as we both mentioned but it was only logical that the newer groups which came later for what ever reason, power money or jobs, would use the same prefix to their organizations name such as BADATAZ BEIT YOSEF (SAFARADI) and BADATZ MEHADRIN (Rabbi Rubin of Rehovot) just to name two of many

Don't think it was to fool or confuse. It's just the correct Hebrew word

craz

You are correct, I would have preferred if everyone but the EDA use a different term then 'Badatz'. In this case I wish the EDA which Im not really fond of, had someway gotten something to have prevented anyone else from using the word Badatz as such. This way when they say they are Badatz I ask to see the cert so to see which Badatz it is.

If they say they are Rabbanut, I ask Mehadrian? thats either replied with Yes or No. Very Simple. Of cause depending on the place I still might ask to see the cert to be sure.

But till theres a Kosher NY type Deli in Israel this is a subject that is Off Topic from Dovs Orginal question/statement.

yosithezet

I think you may be thinking of 'The Committee for Preservation of the Traditions" or "Vaad L'Shmirat Hamesoret". If you are, then to the best of my recollection they are not a Conservative group but a group of Orthodox that indeed will give their Hekhsher (BTW every Hekhsher is 'recognized' by someone apparently) to a business that is open on Shabbat so long as the food itself is kosher. I think that the Japanese restaurant in Jerusalem, Sakura, used this one and I recall that Etnachta switched to it when during Passover they were being denied the rabbanut hekhsher because some cleaning materials or something similar didn't have the kosher for passover stamp on it.

Then again you may be talking about something else that I'm not aware of.

badatz

You are probably correct that this is the organization but as with anything in Israel things are not exactly as they seem to be
The organization was indeed founded by an Orthodox Rabbi, but one who used to be the second in command at another Badatz supervisory organization(I can't remember each one) and after a fall out with that organization for a myriad of matters, some regarding power and others Kashrut, opened this new organization according to most sources out of spite.
They never attempted to give mainstream Hashgachot but went only to businesses open on Shabbat, sort of saying to the Rabbinic world, We can do what we want and we will get customers
I am not sure but I think that they are not active anymore but since I never relied on the Hechsher anyway I don't frequent any places they are associated with
Chanukah Semach

craz

the other day I pulled into a Rest area on the CT Turnpike I-95 (aka New England Thruway) and theres a big sign for the McDonalds thats there, and a large part of the sign was to let people know that McDonalds Now serves Hebrew National Hot Dogs.

How long till they start with Knishes and Dr Browns

Jakebeth

You say it as though that would be a bad thing??

CO FF

To stay on topic, I stand by my opinion of Bernsteins. I know I'm in the minority there, but so be it.

(By the way, can anything out there now beat Solo, in NYC?)

Now, on to responses to what's been going on here:

Gee, guys -- can't the local "Society for the Defense of Conservative Judaism" (aka, yours truly) take a few days off this thread?

Thumper -- if you look at YU/"Modern" orthodoxy of the 60s/70s, and compare it to YU today, I can't see how you would say that it didn't move too. Yes, JTS/Conservative Judaism took a big leap on issues of women's status -- but that's basically the only major change in Conservative interpretation of halacha in the past 25 years. And, don't think modern orthodoxy is exempt -- look at what goes on in shuls like KJ, HIR or Spanish-Portuguese (all in NYC) or B'nai David Judea (LA)...or Shira Chadasha (J'lem); it'll be interesting to see if the next generation of YU trained rabbis view the Riskin/Lookstein/Avi Weiss/Kanefsky approach as heresy or visioinary.

Craz -- There are Catholic Christians, Lutheran Christians, etc. The parallel between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is that each of them holds to the belief that ONLY their form is authentic and others are not. Most protestants - whether evangelical or non-evangelical - seem (to this untrained observer) to have moved hundreds of years beyond the need to compare what they do to the Roman Catholic ritual/dogma.

Maybe that's the evolution going on today in Judaism? (And again, not just from the left -- as this walk-to-shul, only dairy/fish out, no phone/electricity on shabbat husband of a tfilin-layer said at lunch yesterday, "it's tougher and tougher to trust chabad shechita now that most of them don't seem to understand what "dead" is...") Yes, there is more willful disregard of halacha visible now than we would all like to admit probably happened over history -- but at the same time, there seems to be a knee-jerk freezing of halacha from the orthodox rabbinic establishment; if the answer isn't "NO!!!", they won't give one.

craz

As for Solo , havent tried it, Ive heard Fantastic reviews about it, seems its the same owners as The Prime Grill - now thats a Steak for Ya (BTW heard they are closing down The PG in Aventura, Florida , which is a beautiful place inside or eating on its deck overlooking the Intercoastal if its nice out).

Schlots was the place before it became Solo which I heard charged a fortune but wasnt worth it.

The Box Tree which wasnt Kosher was bought and turned into a Kosher place , but was sold a yr or so ago as the owners made a KILLING on the sale of the property.

As for a truly Kosher Deli in NYC the best would be Essex on Coney which is located in the Wall St area a block West of Bway behind what might be 5 Bway, its Glatt Kosher. Its mainstay which burnt down was on Coney Island Ave in Bklyn and Ave J. Rumour has that it wil reopen but it did burn down this past Aug and still hasnt reopened.

CO FF

To update the posts earlier, my favorite NYC deli has closed. 2nd Avenue Deli has shut down in a rent dispute...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/05/nyregion/05deli.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/nyregion/06deli.html