Problems at Radisson Spitsbergen
May 25, 2014, 7:19 am
#61
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Monaco
Posts: 317
Many thanks, ksu, for taking the time for such a highly qualified input and help! Much appreciated. It also helps to keep the riffraff out of this thread.
We have several arrows in our quiver, and we keep you posted how this incident develops.
There have been reactions from several layers at Radisson. The most unpleasant communication is with the hotel itself and its owner company (which is the big but unstable company Hurtigruten, BTW)
We have several arrows in our quiver, and we keep you posted how this incident develops.
There have been reactions from several layers at Radisson. The most unpleasant communication is with the hotel itself and its owner company (which is the big but unstable company Hurtigruten, BTW)
Thanks for a fuller description of the details of the incident.
Here is a link to an unofficial translation of the Norwegian Penal Code from the library of the University of Oslo.
http://www.ub.uio.no/ujur/ulovdata/l...22-010-eng.pdf
I am not a lawyer, but have professionally a lot to do with our court system.
I think that the relevant section here is the felony Section 227, threatening in word or deed to commit a criminal act that is punishable with more than six months of imprisonment, "under such circumstances that the threat is likely to cause serious fear." The bolded part is the essence here (and up to the court to decide). It would be argued by the defence, that a challenge to "come outside" is not likely to cause great fear: it is certainly a nuisance and unpleasant, but not enough to convict.
In that case the misdemeanour Section 390 a) would be used: "Any person who by frightening or annoying behaviour or other inconsiderate conduct violates another person's right to be left in peace". This is a very common section for prosecutions. Section 350 about improper conduct disturbing public peace and order might be relevant, but my experience is that the police prosecutors usually use § 227 or § 390 a.
As for the GM section 347 might be of interest, but I would guess that it would be difficult to prove that one!
I presume that your lawyer in the civil case in the US will seek assistance on the niceties of the Norwegian criminal code from someone qualified before filing your suit.
Here is a link to an unofficial translation of the Norwegian Penal Code from the library of the University of Oslo.
http://www.ub.uio.no/ujur/ulovdata/l...22-010-eng.pdf
I am not a lawyer, but have professionally a lot to do with our court system.
I think that the relevant section here is the felony Section 227, threatening in word or deed to commit a criminal act that is punishable with more than six months of imprisonment, "under such circumstances that the threat is likely to cause serious fear." The bolded part is the essence here (and up to the court to decide). It would be argued by the defence, that a challenge to "come outside" is not likely to cause great fear: it is certainly a nuisance and unpleasant, but not enough to convict.
In that case the misdemeanour Section 390 a) would be used: "Any person who by frightening or annoying behaviour or other inconsiderate conduct violates another person's right to be left in peace". This is a very common section for prosecutions. Section 350 about improper conduct disturbing public peace and order might be relevant, but my experience is that the police prosecutors usually use § 227 or § 390 a.
As for the GM section 347 might be of interest, but I would guess that it would be difficult to prove that one!
I presume that your lawyer in the civil case in the US will seek assistance on the niceties of the Norwegian criminal code from someone qualified before filing your suit.
May 25, 2014, 7:50 am
#62
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KSU (Kristiansund N, Norway)
Programs: SAS EBD/ *G
Posts: 2,163
Hurtigruten
Many thanks, ksu, for taking the time for such a highly qualified input and help! Much appreciated. It also helps to keep the riffraff out of this thread.
We have several arrows in our quiver, and we keep you posted how this incident develops.
There have been reactions from several layers at Radisson. The most unpleasant communication is with the hotel itself and its owner company (which is the big but unstable company Hurtigruten, BTW)
We have several arrows in our quiver, and we keep you posted how this incident develops.
There have been reactions from several layers at Radisson. The most unpleasant communication is with the hotel itself and its owner company (which is the big but unstable company Hurtigruten, BTW)
This would be usual politicking, if it weren't for the fact that they run a commercial operation on the side (cruise ships, hotels etc) and board chairman and part owner of Hurtigruten is Trygve Hegnar, a maverick business man. He runs a business paper (Finansavisen) and an important business magazine (Kapital) where he routinely fights against government subsidies to farming and industries. Hegnar is routinely chastized for being hypocritical in being critical of subsidies and at the same time himself being a recipient of huge subsidies to Hurtigruten. He counters that by using the PSO-argument. His news webpage (www.hegnar.no) is known for having one of the least-moderated comment fields in Norway.
Hegnar is - and this might be relevant - notorious for running smear campaigns against businessmen and others who have crossed him, Kristian Siem and Mona Høiness are two recent feuds I remember. (Note: I do not have any knowledge about who is right and wrong in these two feuds between Hegnar and the individuals named!). He is thus a man many would be wary of fighting - in one way a very Norwegian figure, in another a very unnorwegian figure!
May 25, 2014, 9:36 am
#63
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Monaco
Posts: 317
Many thanks, yet again ksu, for an excellent inside view on the situation in Norway. This is where FT can be really helpful.
Hurtigruten control Spitsbergen Travel who in turn own ALL major hotels and tourism activities on the island. A sort of sick monopoly that infects the tourism health of the whole island. Maybe the Chinese bring some good medicine soon
The CEO of Hurtigruten was recently exchanged (not even on wikipedia yet) and the new chief immediately installed his old buddy, the new GM at Spitsbergen Travel & Radisson Hotel. While this one seems not a bad person per se, and google shows he has to sort out other legal problems, he has practically no hotel background, and in my case - probably out of inexperience - pressed the wrong buttons. He certainly didn't implement standard hotel procedures yet.
In regards to Hegnar, let's see who he "calls outside to teach a lesson"
Hurtigruten control Spitsbergen Travel who in turn own ALL major hotels and tourism activities on the island. A sort of sick monopoly that infects the tourism health of the whole island. Maybe the Chinese bring some good medicine soon
The CEO of Hurtigruten was recently exchanged (not even on wikipedia yet) and the new chief immediately installed his old buddy, the new GM at Spitsbergen Travel & Radisson Hotel. While this one seems not a bad person per se, and google shows he has to sort out other legal problems, he has practically no hotel background, and in my case - probably out of inexperience - pressed the wrong buttons. He certainly didn't implement standard hotel procedures yet.
In regards to Hegnar, let's see who he "calls outside to teach a lesson"
I didn't know that they own that particular hotel. Hurtigruten is a fascinating company. Their main business is to run the costal steamer service of the same name, for which they are heavily subsidized. Officially: the governement buys transportation services after public tender, as a PSO-service, but no other company has a large fleet of ships available to fulfil the conditions of the tender. After they have won the tender, the usually demand more money from the government, and when this is refused, they threaten cutting sailings, which creates such a havoc in the many ports where Hurtigruten provides an essential service, which again leads to the government relenting.
This would be usual politicking, if it weren't for the fact that they run a commercial operation on the side (cruise ships, hotels etc) and board chairman and part owner of Hurtigruten is Trygve Hegnar, a maverick business man. He runs a business paper (Finansavisen) and an important business magazine (Kapital) where he routinely fights against government subsidies to farming and industries. Hegnar is routinely chastized for being hypocritical in being critical of subsidies and at the same time himself being a recipient of huge subsidies to Hurtigruten. He counters that by using the PSO-argument. His news webpage (www.hegnar.no) is known for having one of the least-moderated comment fields in Norway.
Hegnar is - and this might be relevant - notorious for running smear campaigns against businessmen and others who have crossed him, Kristian Siem and Mona Høiness are two recent feuds I remember. (Note: I do not have any knowledge about who is right and wrong in these two feuds between Hegnar and the individuals named!). He is thus a man many would be wary of fighting - in one way a very Norwegian figure, in another a very unnorwegian figure!
This would be usual politicking, if it weren't for the fact that they run a commercial operation on the side (cruise ships, hotels etc) and board chairman and part owner of Hurtigruten is Trygve Hegnar, a maverick business man. He runs a business paper (Finansavisen) and an important business magazine (Kapital) where he routinely fights against government subsidies to farming and industries. Hegnar is routinely chastized for being hypocritical in being critical of subsidies and at the same time himself being a recipient of huge subsidies to Hurtigruten. He counters that by using the PSO-argument. His news webpage (www.hegnar.no) is known for having one of the least-moderated comment fields in Norway.
Hegnar is - and this might be relevant - notorious for running smear campaigns against businessmen and others who have crossed him, Kristian Siem and Mona Høiness are two recent feuds I remember. (Note: I do not have any knowledge about who is right and wrong in these two feuds between Hegnar and the individuals named!). He is thus a man many would be wary of fighting - in one way a very Norwegian figure, in another a very unnorwegian figure!
May 25, 2014, 1:45 pm
#64
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Vana-Antsla, Estonia
Programs: Free at last!
Posts: 387
Ironically, the only time I was ever threatened by restaurant staff was in a snack bar in Wengen, Switzerland and over a plate of spaghetti, to boot.
We were a bunch of entitled adolescents, having a larf of some sort at the expense of the Swiss miss waitress. I was invited downstairs where her S.O. or big brother was doing the cooking.
For the rest of our stay, _I_ made sure no one got out of line.
I was 19. Had travelled by myself for 8 years by that point and was glad to receive such a reminder to be respectful of others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZNDEqcSi0
We were a bunch of entitled adolescents, having a larf of some sort at the expense of the Swiss miss waitress. I was invited downstairs where her S.O. or big brother was doing the cooking.
For the rest of our stay, _I_ made sure no one got out of line.
I was 19. Had travelled by myself for 8 years by that point and was glad to receive such a reminder to be respectful of others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZNDEqcSi0
May 25, 2014, 9:50 pm
#65
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: IAD/DCA
Posts: 31,797
only on flyertalk would a criminal threat/etc be excused in order to personally attack a poster who was making a complaint about something other than award/status program.
things can go wrong anywhere at any time.
the problem is manager reply to criminal threat/etc with >
while using this for something else >
Deltahater, the post you quoted in #52 was not intended to communicate the things you replied to.
things can go wrong anywhere at any time.
the problem is manager reply to criminal threat/etc with >
apologize for any inconvenience you may
do not accept
Last edited by Kagehitokiri; May 25, 2014 at 11:58 pm
May 27, 2014, 10:21 pm
#66
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Calif.
Programs: SK*G, AS*MVP75k, UA*G
Posts: 110
May 28, 2014, 2:21 am
#67
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Monaco
Posts: 317
So right Kage. ^
only on flyertalk would a criminal threat/etc be excused in order to personally attack a poster who was making a complaint about something other than award/status program.
things can go wrong anywhere at any time.
the problem is manager reply to criminal threat/etc with >
while using this for something else >
Deltahater, the post you quoted in #52 was not intended to communicate the things you replied to.
things can go wrong anywhere at any time.
the problem is manager reply to criminal threat/etc with >
while using this for something else >
Deltahater, the post you quoted in #52 was not intended to communicate the things you replied to.
May 28, 2014, 2:29 am
#68
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Monaco
Posts: 317
Ok, here is where we are:
The head of Radisson Scandinavia took the time for an almost 1-hour phone call, pressed all the right buttons and apologized. Very good impression.
The CEO of Rezidor Worldwide apologized in writing and sent a voucher for a 2-nights-free stay. Good or not?
The opinion on the Radisson Spitsbergen waiter and on the GM's email was shared. As it turns out they do not have as much influence on the hotel owner (Hurtigruten), as they would like. E.g. they can not sack staff. Only Hurtigruten can do that.
Hurtigrotten has not replied to three emails.
The head of Radisson Scandinavia took the time for an almost 1-hour phone call, pressed all the right buttons and apologized. Very good impression.
The CEO of Rezidor Worldwide apologized in writing and sent a voucher for a 2-nights-free stay. Good or not?
The opinion on the Radisson Spitsbergen waiter and on the GM's email was shared. As it turns out they do not have as much influence on the hotel owner (Hurtigruten), as they would like. E.g. they can not sack staff. Only Hurtigruten can do that.
Hurtigrotten has not replied to three emails.
Last edited by LuxuryRogue; May 29, 2014 at 11:42 am Reason: higlighted: good or not?
May 28, 2014, 2:35 am
#69
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, UK
Programs: Amex platinum, LeClubAccor Plat, Club Carlson gold, Hilton HHonours Diamond
Posts: 318
The OP does seem to have a bit of a thing about "migrant workers". I do wonder what was said before said "migrant worker" invited him outside.
I suspect there is a bit more to this than meets the eye.
May 28, 2014, 11:52 am
#70
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KSU (Kristiansund N, Norway)
Programs: SAS EBD/ *G
Posts: 2,163
Ok, here is where we are:
The head of Radisson Scandinavia took the time for an almost 1-hour phone call, pressed all the right buttons and apologized. Very good impression.
The CEO of Rezidor Worldwide apologized in writing and sent a voucher for a 2-nights-free stay. Good or not?
The opinion on the Radisson Spitsbergen waiter and on the GM's email was shared. As it turns out they do not have as much influence on the hotel owner (Hurtigruten), as they would like. E.g. they can not sack staff.
Hurtigrotten has not replied to three emails.
The head of Radisson Scandinavia took the time for an almost 1-hour phone call, pressed all the right buttons and apologized. Very good impression.
The CEO of Rezidor Worldwide apologized in writing and sent a voucher for a 2-nights-free stay. Good or not?
The opinion on the Radisson Spitsbergen waiter and on the GM's email was shared. As it turns out they do not have as much influence on the hotel owner (Hurtigruten), as they would like. E.g. they can not sack staff.
Hurtigrotten has not replied to three emails.
May 28, 2014, 10:37 pm
#71
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Monaco
Posts: 317
Just like Norway is host to such disparate concepts from Trolls to Peace Nobel Prize Winners, we obviously have to accept the same for Flyertalk.
While I will not start explaining the finer irony in the phrase "this migrant worker is not fit for the service industry but should rather work in the local mining or meatpacking industry" I will give three hints to better understand:
a) The guy looked and talked like a local, and he made the point of his guest being a "tourist". Funny to find out later that HE is a migrant worker.
b) No, Portugal is not in Africa
c) With the line "My father doesn't talk to me like this" the Portuguese "expatriate guest relations manager" (sounds better than migrant worker?) wanted to claim the Norwegian concept of Jante's law for himself (instead of just saying "Sorry Sir, we've screwed up your order.")
Wikipedia: Tall Poppy Syndrome
Wikipedia: Jante's Law
The problem with this thread now being on the Carlson forum is that the quality of comments (in particular the pseudo-legal babbling) has dropped to the Jante crowd that Carlson typically attracts. With exceptions of course.
While I will not start explaining the finer irony in the phrase "this migrant worker is not fit for the service industry but should rather work in the local mining or meatpacking industry" I will give three hints to better understand:
a) The guy looked and talked like a local, and he made the point of his guest being a "tourist". Funny to find out later that HE is a migrant worker.
b) No, Portugal is not in Africa
c) With the line "My father doesn't talk to me like this" the Portuguese "expatriate guest relations manager" (sounds better than migrant worker?) wanted to claim the Norwegian concept of Jante's law for himself (instead of just saying "Sorry Sir, we've screwed up your order.")
Wikipedia: Tall Poppy Syndrome
The concepts of janteloven, or "Jante law", in Scandinavia, and 'A kent yer faither' (English: I knew your father) in Scotland, are very similar.
Wikipedia: Jante's Law
The Law of Jante (Norwegian Janteloven) is the idea that there is a pattern of group behaviour towards individuals within Scandinavian communities that negatively portrays and criticises individual success and achievement as unworthy and inappropriate.
The Jante Law as a concept was created by the Dano-Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose.[1] In his novel A fugitive crosses his tracks he identified the Law of Jante as ten rules.
Generally used colloquially in Sweden[3] and the rest of the Nordic countries as a sociological term to negatively describe a condescending attitude towards individuality and success, the term refers to a mentality that de-emphasizes individual effort and places all emphasis on the collective, while discouraging those who stand out as achievers.
The ten rules state:
You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.
These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the "Jante's Shield" of the Scandinavian people.
In the book, the Janters who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.
An eleventh rule recognized in the novel as 'the penal code of Jante' is:
Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?
The Jante Law as a concept was created by the Dano-Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose.[1] In his novel A fugitive crosses his tracks he identified the Law of Jante as ten rules.
Generally used colloquially in Sweden[3] and the rest of the Nordic countries as a sociological term to negatively describe a condescending attitude towards individuality and success, the term refers to a mentality that de-emphasizes individual effort and places all emphasis on the collective, while discouraging those who stand out as achievers.
The ten rules state:
You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.
These ten principles or commandments are often claimed to form the "Jante's Shield" of the Scandinavian people.
In the book, the Janters who transgress this unwritten 'law' are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.
An eleventh rule recognized in the novel as 'the penal code of Jante' is:
Perhaps you don't think we know a few things about you?
Last edited by LuxuryRogue; May 29, 2014 at 11:43 am
May 28, 2014, 11:20 pm
#72
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Programs: Mainly Hilton Hhonors, SAS Eurobonus
Posts: 1,981
No riffraff, no Scandinavians and no Carlson customers.
You are bordering on being offensive with your continued comments about the Jante laws.
May 29, 2014, 12:52 am
#73
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Monaco
Posts: 317
Rezidor has tried hard over the last decade to enter the more demanding market, and has made bigger steps forward than most other hotel groups.
However, in some areas Rezidor is still lacking, as proven by my incident in Spitsbergen (which infuriates their HQ more than me) and as proven by the quality of some comments here: simple riff raff fraternization.
In a Four Seasons forum the discussion level would be higher. No, I'm not asking the thread to be moved.
The Jante thing is not purely Scandinavian, and luckily not all Scandinavians have it. So please don't invent any "anti-notions" against me.
Anti-violence? Anti-stupid? Anti-riffraff? Anti-IKEA? Guilty on all counts. ^
May 29, 2014, 6:38 am
#74
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: HEL
Programs: AY, SK, TK
Posts: 7,598
Wow, this thread is funny reading now 
OT: As for the Jante-law, that sounds very communist and sounds more typical of Finns actually than Scandinavian (=SWE,NOR,DEN) with an exception of the American you-can-achieve-something added onto it. I didn't remember those 10 "rules" and it was funny to read how stupid those rules are.
OT: As for the Jante-law, that sounds very communist and sounds more typical of Finns actually than Scandinavian (=SWE,NOR,DEN) with an exception of the American you-can-achieve-something added onto it. I didn't remember those 10 "rules" and it was funny to read how stupid those rules are.
May 29, 2014, 8:44 am
#75
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, UK
Programs: Amex platinum, LeClubAccor Plat, Club Carlson gold, Hilton HHonours Diamond
Posts: 318
My thoughts on this thread?
Kudos to the GM of the Radisson Spitsbergen, for supporting his staff in the face of what appers to be an overbearing arse, who would be at home in the DYKWIA thread . The OPs description of the waiter, and desire to have him sacked, in the email speaks volumes.
Disappointed but not surprised at the craven atitude of the Radission Scandinavia.
Lots ofbig talk about legal proceeding is the US for damages. Then apparently being satisfied with a letter and a 2 night voucher.
Most entertaining thread for ages. :-)
Kudos to the GM of the Radisson Spitsbergen, for supporting his staff in the face of what appers to be an overbearing arse, who would be at home in the DYKWIA thread . The OPs description of the waiter, and desire to have him sacked, in the email speaks volumes.
Disappointed but not surprised at the craven atitude of the Radission Scandinavia.
Lots ofbig talk about legal proceeding is the US for damages. Then apparently being satisfied with a letter and a 2 night voucher.
Most entertaining thread for ages. :-)