Can I do this?
 

Apologies as I should know the answer to this question, but as it affects my own travel it is often hard to be as objective as I would like!

I'm about to book a reward flight with LX from London to Istanbul.

The routing I would like to take is:

LHR/WAW/BUD/ZRH/IST/ZRH/LHR (using LO and LX)

Stopover would be in Budapest only, with stay of 24 hours or so.

I have a feeling that I probably can't do this routing as it might get caught under the 'side-trip' rules, where the ZRH/IST/ZRH would need a second ticket.

If it is caught under the side-trip rules, is ANY other combination possible other than 'direct' LX services from London to IST via Zurich?


Thanks in advance

WG

The side-trip rules say "If you want to fly to the same destination more than once, you need a second ticket".

Seems quite clear to me. However, I got confused about a routing that was posted a couple of weeks ago and that involved a mini-RTW. as for zone jumping, the website says "miles for the more expensive zone plus a second award ticket for the return flight". The example they give (Beijing-Zurich-Bangkok-Zurich-Beijing) would fall under the side-trip rule as quoted above. Is this the reason why you need a second ticket for this routing or does every zone jumping route require 2 tickets ? I'm especially wondering about Zurich-Las Vegas-Tokyo-Zurich.
Someone posted that he asked Qualiflyer CS about it and they said its possible with 1 ticket.

huegli

Thanks for the quick reply - however my question was a little more subtle - as travel will be originating in London, I will only be visiting Zurich by way of transfer.

You will note that even a 'direct' ticket from London to IST will involve a transit in Switzerland.

My issue was really with a circular routing and how the transit (x 2) would be interpreted.

As regards to you other query - yes it is a bit puzzling, but it looks like they have just constructed two round trip tickets - ie PEK-ZRH return, and ZRH-BKK return. This is the penalty you pay for having voluntary travel via another zone which is not necessarily required in order for you to complete your journey (ie there are more direct flights between PEK and BKK than going via ZRH).

The above would be distinguished from the open jaw example that they gave (ZRH-SFO, then return HKG-ZRH), as both of those involve direct flights which do not involve a voluntary stop in another zone.

Cheers

WG

edited just to say that the itinerary of ZRH-LAS-surface-NRT-ZRH would be fine for the open jaw example and would not require extra points. You would not be able to include the LAS-NRT ticket on the itinerary though.


[This message has been edited by LHR/MEL/Europe FF (edited 05-30-2002).]

Actually, how I remember it, the LAS-NRT segment could also be included in the routing. At least that was the result of a fellow FTer's inquiry.
Why should it be forbidden to fly ZRH-LAS-NRT to get to Tokyo (instead of ZRH-NRT) and then have your return flight NRT-ZRH ? If you chose a routing via a different zone, they just charge you for the more expensive zone.

As to your question: since ZRH is not voluntary (apparently you have to transfer there), I don't think they can hang you for visiting Zurich twice on your trip.

I would be more than happy, if Qualiflyer would redeem this award in one ticket, the idea is great LHR/MEL/Europe FF! But referring to Qualilfyers terms & conditions I don´t think, that it works:

Your final destination is IST and your permitted stopover is on the outbound flight in BUD. So far so good. But Qualiflyers “side trip rule” does not take under consideration if it is a stopover (over 24 hours) or not: You would like to fly more than once to the same destination: You need a second ticket {Example: Vienna - Zurich - Barcelona - Zurich - Milan - Zurich - Vienna (= 2nd Ticket for the routing Zurich - Milan – Zurich)}. LHR-WAW-BUD-ZRH-IST-ZRH-LHR (= 2nd Ticket for the routing ZRH - IST – ZRH).

ANY other combination possible other than 'direct' LX services from London to IST via Zurich?
Referring to Qualilfyer: Free tickets on Qualiflyer airlines (including Turkish Airlines and PGA-Portugália Airlines) can be combined with flights on American Airlines, Finnair, Ukraine International Airlines and South African Airways. Why not BUD-IST on TK? Itinery: LHR-WAW-BUD-IST-ZRH-LHR

[This message has been edited by Patron (edited 05-31-2002).]

I had a big fight with these rules, so I think I may be able to help.

A routing like:

LHR-ZRH-IST-ZRH-LHR is fine, the rule does not preclude you visiting ZRH twice (though you cannot stopover more than once). The issue appears to rear it's ugly head when you try to visit a second destination by transiting an intermediate point twice. These rules are enforced by software at QG, and they seem pretty unwilling to explain the real interpretation, However, I tried:

MAN-X/ZRH-NRT-X/ZRH-X/LIS-FAO-X/LIS-MAN

(Thus getting stopovers both in Tokyo and Faro)

But they stampted on that, saying that the two transfers in LIS broke the side-trip rules (which is pretty difficult to argue with). However, they said that if I could have done:

MAN-X/ZRH-NRT-X/ZRH-X/LIS-FAO-MAN

Then I would have been OK (no side trip from LIS to FAO) but we decided that spending 3 hours on a PGA jungle-jet was too high a price to pay.

I suggest that if you want to do the trip you outline, you find another QG group airline that flies to IST, so (and I don't think SN actually does IST anymore, so this is just an example):

LHR-X/WAW-BUD-X/ZRH-IST-X/BRU-LHR

Should work, I think.

Happy Trails!

Ken.

"A friend of mine is into Voodoo Acupuncture. You don't have to go. You'll just be walking down the street, and... Ooooohhhhhh, that's much better..."
- Steven Wright

KenF suggests that if Wynand wants to do the trip he outlined, he finds another QG group airline that flies to IST, so (and I don't think SN actually does IST anymore) this is just an example: LHR-X/WAW-BUD-X/ZRH-IST-X/BRU-LHR .

SN actually does not fly to IST. As far as I know, referring ty Wynand´s itinery the only QG partner airline flying to IST is TK. If this is the case, I do not see the point flying from BUD back to ZRH than forward to IST and on TK back to BRU. As I mentioned before, it is much more easier and less time consuming to go from BUD on TK straight to IST (keep my fingers cross that the award is available) and on LX via ZRH back to LHR.

[This message has been edited by Patron (edited 05-31-2002).]

Thanks for the assistance eveyone.

I agree that TK would be the best option - I had thought that they were no longer a partner for the purposes Qualiflyer - but I see from the awards clculator that they are.

I will try that routing.

Regards

WG

For two award flights I have recently booked, Qualiflyer accepted the following routing for one 20k miles ticket each:

1st award:
DUS-BSL-GVA -Stopover- GVA-ZRH-OTP (Final Dest) OTP-ZRH-DUS

2nd award:
DUS-WAW-IST -Stopover- IST-OTP (Final Dest) OTP-WAW-DUS

So your initial itinerary looks ok to me.


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Hajo's World

In my opinion, this is a different story, because if you look at Qualilfyers example, VIE-ZRH-BCN-ZRH-VIE (= 2 necessary stops at LX hub ZRH) is permitted, the side trip to MXP not. On your 1st award, you flew from Dusseldorf to Bucharest with one outbound stopover at Geneva (2 necessary stops at LX hub ZRH), on your 2nd award you flew from Dusseldorf to Istanbul with one inbound stopover at Bucharest (2 necessary stops at LO hub WAW).
Wynand likes to fly from London to Istanbul with one outbound stopover at Budapest. If he is flying from BUD back to ZRH, forward to IST and back to ZRH again, I am quit sure that Qualiflyer characterize IST-ZRH-IST as a side trip. In my opinion, Wynand can save 20.000 miles if he uses a non-stop flight from BUD to IST on TK and considers a routing like LHR-WAW-BUD-IST-ZRH-LHR.
I would be more than happy, if Wynand would be nice enough and inform us about Qualilfyers decision.

Thanks for your valuable comment, Patron. This makes me ask - are stopovers only allowed at qualiflyer hubs? Or could it be any destination en route, in which case his BUD trip could count as a stopover? I can't find anything about that in the QG guide or on the website.



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Hajo's World

Are stopovers only allowed at Qualiflyer hubs or could it be any destination en route?

Stopovers are permitted either on outward or return flight at any destination en route. Unfortunately, QG´s written text of the restrictive “side trip” rule can be misunderstanding: You would like to fly more than once to the same destination: You need a second ticket. If you fly eg VIE-ZRH-BCN-ZRH (2nd example) you fly to ZRH more than once, but still you need just one ticket.

Referring to QG´s essential terms & conditions -

• maximum eight segments,
• one stopover (changing flights within 24 hours does not count as a stopover) on outward or return flight besides the final destination permitted and
• side trip is not permitted

- this discussion inspired me to build an valuable “Round Europe” Award ticket like this:

VIE - ZRH (LX) - LIS (LX) - DUB (TP) – HEL (AY) – KBP (AY) – FCO (PS) – BRU (SN) – VIE (SN). I don´t know it this would be a 25.000 C-Class award because I am struggling around to find “the point of return” (= final destination) of this ticket in order to define my outward and return flight for one permitted stopover. Any suggestions?

If this wasn't an award ticket, it would almost look like a mileage run. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


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Hajo's World

I wasn't sure that you could interline Finnair (AY). Some partners do not permit interlining, and I believe that if you were to fly Cathay Pacific (CX) you would have to complete the entire journey with CX. Am I right about this?

http://www.qualiflyer.com/spend/air/awards/

"Flights on Qualiflyer airlines (including Turkish Airlines and PGA-Portugália Airlines) can be combined with flights on American Airlines, Finnair, Ukraine International Airlines and South African Airways."


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Hajo's World

[This message has been edited by HajoFlyer (edited 06-03-2002).]

Correct, no CX-LX combination allowed. As CX do not currently fly from ZRH, I compared between AMS/CDG/FRA/LHR-HKG and booked via CDG which had by far the best availability (and 744 aircraft). To get to CDG I will just have to pay or use another 20/25000 miles.

AY-LX works fine and the extra 5000 miles required for C is well worth it on AY.

I discovered last year that you can't have AY and TK on the same award ticket.

Stephen

Thank you Concerto, timol and sjharte (Stephen) for introducing the “interlining rule” (= combination possibilities of several airline within one award ticket or upgrade) to the board.

Concerto is right, interlining between LX/CX is not permitted. For example the routing ZRH-HKG-SIN-HKG-ZRH could be issued completely on CX (= one award ticket), assuming that LX´s ZRH-HKG-ZRH still has a CX code share number.

sjharte (Stephen) is right, that you can't have AY and TK on the same award ticket. Interlining with AY is permitted with FU/IW/LO/LX/PE/SN/TP/VA only.

Thanks everyone for your assistance and ideas. I have now made the following booking:

LHR-WAW-BUD (LO)
BUD-ZRH (waitlist on both LX and MA services)
ZRH-IST (LX)
IST-ZRH (TK)

I was advised that transiting ZRH twice would make the IST section count as a side-trip.

Interesting to note is that for the sector LHR-WAW I was offered the LO code-share flight using BA, although this was only available for travel in Y class (ie C class rewards not permitted at all).

Travel between BUD and ZRH is permitted on both LX and the LX code-share with Malev.

Regards

WG

Wynand made the following booking LHR-WAW-BUD-ZRH-IST-ZRH (-?!) and was advised that transiting ZRH twice would make the IST section count as a side-trip.

You have a side trip ZRH-IST-ZRH (=2nd ticket), because ZRH appears on your homebound itinerary twice and not because you are transiting in ZRH twice! Your final destination is WAW (= point of return), which does not count as stopover. Subsequently you are travelling back to BUD and ZRH and forward to IST again.

Patron

The itinerary is LHR-WAW-BUD (stopover)-ZRH-IST -LHR - this is ok.

The itinerary LHR-WAW-BUD (stopover)-ZRH-IST-ZRH (transit only)-LHR counts the ZRH-IST as the sidetrip.

The end destination in each itinerary is IST where I am staying for three days. BUD is the stopover of two days. All other points are transit only.

Cheers

WG

Wynand, thanks for clarifying! Sure, IST is your final destination and I was wrong in my previous post presenting WAW in LHR – WAW - BUD (stopover) – ZRH - IST (final destination) - ZRH – LHR as final destination. Sorry for the confusion!

What I was trying to say: You do not travel in one continuous direction on your outbound leg, assuming that free tickets are based on routings (and not on mileage). You are backtracking from WAW via BUD to ZRH and forward to your final destination IST. Further more, I think that the advise you heard that transiting ZRH twice would make the IST section count as a side-trip is not correct, because the no-side-trip-rule says: The same airport may not appear more than once in either the outbound or the homebound itinerary. If the advise you heard would be correct, you could easily change ZRH with BRU (flying on TK and SN) on your homebound itinerary making LHR - WAW- BUD (stopover) – ZRH – IST (final destination) – BRU – LHR in one ticket. But in my opinion, this does not work!

I hope I do not boring you if I come up with a new suggestion with an itinerary for one free ticket assuming that you have to be in WAW for less than 24h:

LHR – ZRH – (LX 317) – BUD (LX 2250; stopover) – WAW (LO 5536 or LO 532) – IST (LO 135; final destination) - ZRH (LX 1805) – LHR (LX 454)

Besides that, LHR – ZRH (LX 317) – BUD (LX 2250; stopover) – IST (TK 1436; final destination) – ZRH (LX 1805) – LHR (LX 454) should be one ticket.

Have fun!

Patron

Thanks once again for your comments - it's always good to have a discussion with someone who is up on the rules!

I had tried the option of going direct BUD-IST on TK - but I have to travel on a Saturday and this is the only day there is no TK flight (hence going via ZRH)!

Although as I mentioned we are still waitlisted for two sectors, so we may not be going anyway...

Just out of interest - and this is in relation to one of the other threads about awards on code-shares - I was advised by Qualiflyer that there is no award availability on the Malaysia Airlines service from Zurich to Kuala Lumpur (at least in First). I didn't push the point as I wanted to fly Swiss with the beds, but it would be interesting to know for future reference if the information I was given is correct.

Regards

WG

As you know, Wynand, Qualiflyer is offering a free F-Class ticket ZRH-KUL (LX 4310 operated by MH) - ZRH for 160.000 Qualiflyer miles. What I really don´t know is, if a seat is available on the specific date you need it…

Going for a free F-Class ticket to Australia for 280.000 miles (expensive), I would choose LX to HKG and continuing to SYD on CX (knowing that it is also very difficult to get a F-Class award seat on CX).

Just one thing I'm not sure about: does MH offer 3 classes at all? And how is MH Business?

------------------
airOli, the Swiss Air Line. ;)

Patron

My issue was that according to Qualiflyer, it was not possible to ask for a reward seat on the MH aircraft - whether booking under LX or MH (but as I mentioned I didn't push this point as I wasn't after it anyway).

What I have done in place is to fly with LX from London to Singapore (160 000 in F) and then connected with MH from there to Melbourne (90 000 in F) - so a total of 250 000. I tried to get a reward on CX via HKG, but there was absolutely no availability into Australia in June or July (and it was pretty difficult out of London as well).

MH direct out of London would have cost me the same 280 000, but they don't offer flat beds.

AirOli - MH is quite a good airline, there has been some discussion on other threads saying that MH today is a bit like SQ 10 years ago. Service on MH is usually very good. Only problem is the F class seats, which have a 72 inch pitch, but are not flat.

Regards

WG