Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Qantas | Frequent Flyer
Reload this Page >

QFF cancelled with no notice [points expiry]

QFF cancelled with no notice [points expiry]

Old Oct 14, 17, 12:59 am
  #46  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by bensyd View Post
Agree. It would be very cynical of QF to accept those points and then cancel them from inactivity a week or so later. I suspect there is more to the story.
Well not only did that happen (as reported), but also QF wouldn't offer a means for points reinstatement.


So the question would be what you would do if you (or somebody you know seeking your advice) found yourself with no account activity, an impending expiry event...

...are you so certain of your position that you would rely on a transfer from Amex MR to trigger activity? And thereby also risk a swag of Amex points going into the QF void?

Personally I wouldn't do it without a written statement from QF clearly stating that such a transfer was in the "earn" category.

Some might argue that QF wouldn't give a hoot about losing a customer of low activity when they just saved having to deliver on redeemed points at a future date: remember QF have already received cash revenue from Amex purchasing those points and only book up a cost on their accounts ledger when the points are redeemed. Some might even suggest that that would be a laudable strategy for saving cash.

Last edited by Platy; Oct 14, 17 at 1:14 am
Platy is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 1:13 am
  #47  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,330
I've previously confirmed this with qantas as I've had to keep my mothers points from expiry by using a points transfer from a credit card, they confirmed it was valid activity and when the points were transferred it reset the expiry. The easiest way to see that this is the case is to look at your account and there's a whole section under 'Points earned in the last 12 months' dedicated to transfers from credit cards. It's clearly valid point earning activity, arguing otherwise is just embarrassing.
IMOA is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 1:20 am
  #48  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: RSE
Programs: AA Exp|VA Platinum
Posts: 13,208
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
...are you so certain of your position that you would rely on a transfer from Amex MR to trigger activity?
Yes. I don't see any ambiguity in the t&c's.
bensyd is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 1:24 am
  #49  
HB7
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Exec Club, SIA KrisFlyer, Qantas FF, Emirates Skywards
Posts: 1,045
Originally Posted by Mozo View Post
Couldn't agree more, Qantas is clearly trying hide the fact that points are expiring.

How hard would it be for them to send a seperate email with the subject line 'Points Expiring Soon'

No instead they choose to hide it in the hope that loyal customers who have kept them in business will miss it and lose their hard earned points - how's that for loyalty!!

Whoever thought this practice up should be fired but instead probably received a promotion.

I never received any emails, in fine print or not, warning me of my point expiry.

I'll be emailing Qantas CEO Alan Joyce now, no way I'm giving up on this. Did you approach the ACCC?
Clearly a misguided and factually incorrect statement.

While I believe there are many things Qantas can improve on in their FF program, they are in no way trying to "hide it" (the fact that points are trying to expire).

Furthermore, there is absolutely no wrong-doing here on Qantas' behalf, so approaching them or the ACCC, in my humble opinion, is a futile endeavour.
eminere likes this.
HB7 is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 1:25 am
  #50  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 41,592
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
Are we at least agreed that the T&Cs could be clarified, on whether a generic credit card transfer is earn or not, QF choose to do so?
No - given that QF is specifically listing exceptions to earnings rather than listing that which is eligible, it seems quite unambiguous to me

Originally Posted by Platy View Post
...are you so certain of your position that you would rely on a transfer from Amex MR to trigger activity? And thereby also risk a swag of Amex points going into the QF void?
Yes; not only are the terms clear but I believe that there would be a lot more than 1 report of such a situation

I am more inclined to go with an error or omission in information provided by the person who had the issue
Dave Noble is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 1:32 am
  #51  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
No - given that QF is specifically listing exceptions to earnings rather than listing that which is eligible, it seems quite unambiguous to me



Yes; not only are the terms clear but I believe that there would be a lot more than 1 report of such a situation

I am more inclined to go with an error or omission in information provided by the person who had the issue
Actually QF do list the inclusions for points earn, that's the problem.

Like I said, folk will believe what they want and make their own choices - often a case here on FT that the airline is presumed to be right over any reported customer experiences!
Platy is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 1:40 am
  #52  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by IMOA View Post
I've previously confirmed this with qantas as I've had to keep my mothers points from expiry by using a points transfer from a credit card, they confirmed it was valid activity and when the points were transferred it reset the expiry. The easiest way to see that this is the case is to look at your account and there's a whole section under 'Points earned in the last 12 months' dedicated to transfers from credit cards. It's clearly valid point earning activity, arguing otherwise is just embarrassing.
If it's clearly "earn" category and so easily shown as such on your account, why did you feel the need to clarify with QF?

Why should I believe your own experiences as reported if you are going to trash those of my friend?
Platy is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 1:43 am
  #53  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: RSE
Programs: AA Exp|VA Platinum
Posts: 13,208
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
If it's clearly "earn" category and so easily shown as such on your account, why did you feel the need to clarify with QF?

Why should I believe your own experiences as reported if you are going to trash those of my friend?
Why don't you ring Qantas and ask them. Then you won't have to rely on secondhand [email protected]:-)
bensyd is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 4:23 am
  #54  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by bensyd View Post
Why don't you ring Qantas and ask them. Then you won't have to rely on secondhand [email protected]:-)
Because:

1. I've experienced misinformation on telephone contact with QF - so I'd want it in writing
2. My recent experience is of 30 minute wait times even for premium - so I won't waste my time ringing QF and being put on hold for that long
3. It doesn't affect me personally - I'm turning over 100,000 pts without setting foot on a QF aircraft (hint the Yarrabank champagne and Alan Scott Pinot are crackers!)
4. Whatever the answer doesn't either invalidate or prove the actual experience of my friend - since there could have been a change of rules / inconsistent application of rules / inconsistent application of reinstatement offers


IMHO it is a sad state of affairs that the prevailing milieu on FT is to trash the customer experiences (particular first time of newly joined members) often on positions of tenuous logic and assumption, adopt a position of presuming perfection and good practice in the airline (hint: it's not that well managed), all the while with key players on this blog advocating a position wherein their conflicts of interest (hint: business with airline) are not made clear.

FWIW the question of whether a generic credit card transfer is deemed a points earn transaction or not could be relevant to some and therefore worthy of discussion (despite stupid remarks about such discussion being "embarrassing"). It could affect some folk as brutally as it did my friend.

Seriously, why even bother bringing such examples to people's attention if it only raises the usual chorus of know-it-all and smug responses that question the integrity and honesty of other folk?!
Platy is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 4:25 am
  #55  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
I believe that there would be a lot more than 1 report of such a situation
Hmmm...your belief systems prove nothing Dave, except the weakness of your logic if you have to rely on such.

(And if you were to use logic rather than belief perhaps consider 54 people have read this thread most of whom will be very active members for whom the expiry issue will never occur - so just how many reports would be required to reject the hypothesis statistically?)

Last edited by Platy; Oct 14, 17 at 4:45 am
Platy is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 4:55 am
  #56  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 37,128
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
Once you (rightly) observe that other types of transfer do not count, you might reasonably query whether a generic credit card transfer should also be on the exemption list.
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
Actually QF do list the inclusions for points earn, that's the problem.
Like others, I find it very hard to see how you can read the expiry T&C like that.

The two relevant bits are:-
Effective until 15 March 2017, all Points held in a Qantas Frequent Flyer account of a non-Active Member will expire at midnight Sydney, Australia time at the end of the 18th consecutive month for which the Member has not earned Points or Status Credits or redeemed Points (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member and excluding any transfer of Points from Qantas Business Rewards).
With effect from 16 March 2017, all Points held in a Qantas Frequent Flyer account will expire at midnight Sydney, Australia time at the end of the 18th consecutive month for which the Member has not earned Points or Status Credits or redeemed Points (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member and excluding any transfer of Points from Qantas Business Rewards).
There are no "inclusions" for types of points earning that reset the clock. All points earn qualifies, except for the stated exclusions - and credit card transfers are not excluded. (In the expiry T&C, the only other mention of specific types of points earning concern the deemed timing of the earn, not whether they do or do not reset the clock.)

The only way it could possibly be clearer is by listing every possible type of points earning and specifically identifying whether or not they reset the clock. But specifically identifying every type of points earning that does not reset the clock, and saying that everything else does reset the clock (which is the current approach of the T&C) does the job perfectly well. It's a technique that's used in many many situations.

You seem to suggest that there's a specific ambiguity about credit card transfers that specifically needs clearing up. But the status of that type of points earning is actually no more ambiguous than the status of any other type of points earning - not specifically listed, but lumped into the category of all other (ie non-excluded) earning which therefore does reset the clock. One is tempted to wonder whether your focus on credit card transfers is driven by the story which you relate - but I think that you would be the first to recognise that that would be special pleading rather than looking at the adequacy of all the T&C as a whole.
Globaliser is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 5:09 am
  #57  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 37,128
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
IMHO it is a sad state of affairs that the prevailing milieu on FT is to trash the customer experiences (particular first time of newly joined members) often on positions of tenuous logic and assumption, adopt a position of presuming perfection and good practice in the airline (hint: it's not that well managed), all the while with key players on this blog advocating a position wherein their conflicts of interest (hint: business with airline) are not made clear.
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
(And if you were to use logic rather than belief perhaps consider 54 people have read this thread most of whom will be very active members for whom the expiry issue will never occur - so just how many reports would be required to reject the hypothesis statistically?)
There's a certain irony in the person who criticised another FTer's comments on the basis of that FTer's alleged "world view" so clearly adopting a position of their own that QF is in the wrong unless it is proved to be in the right. An example is your assumption, in your successive posts which I quoted earlier, that QF has only recently started taking steps to notify members of forthcoming points expiry and that it had not done so until recently. On that, you were simply wrong - as I have demonstrated, with the citation of dates - and as you have now kindly acknowledged.

The problem with the OP's story (and with the less detailed comments posted by the other new member) is therefore that it is implausible given what is known about the steps that QF does take - and has been taking for years - to notify members with imminently-expiring balances that it is about to happen. The more likely explanation is pointed to by the other comments made by the OP that they regarded the T&C as "rubbish" and emails from QF as "spam", both of which they ignored. So the position adopted by most in this thread is based on what has been said, not from simply assuming that the airline must be right and the OP must be wrong.

And as you now seem to have been backed into a position of resorting to casting doubt on the integrity of those who have been posting, let me make my own business position clear: I've largely moved away from flying QF. The QFFF scheme changed so as to work much less well for me and I moved to using BAEC, and with that came some benefit from flying BA rather than QF where there was a choice, reinforced after the end of the JSA. I stuck with earning in QFFF only for long enough to earn LTS, and have since then just earned to keep the points balance alive. I do fly QF occasionally when it's the sensible choice (particularly Australia domestic, trans-Tasman, Australia <--> South Africa, and when availability dictates). Ironically, it's the relatively low level of my business dealings with QF that means that I have some concrete examples to offer of what QF does to notify of imminent points expiry.

And as you will have noticed, QF is doing more than the T&C require it to do - ie QF is sending specific emails warning of points expiry, when the T&C do not actually require it.

Now, if in your friend's case QF has made a mistake (which is perfectly within the bounds of possibility), then your friend should take it up with QF, point it out, and pursue the complaint. On the facts which you've mentioned, someone has clearly made a mistake.
Globaliser is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 5:37 am
  #58  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 41,592
Originally Posted by Platy View Post



Seriously, why even bother bringing such examples to people's attention if it only raises the usual chorus of know-it-all and smug responses that question the integrity and honesty of other folk?!
All you are doing is highlighting a situation where either

[a] Qantas made an error and the person should pursue it further to get the transferred points back or
[b] that the information provided by this person is either incorrect or incomplete

The likelihood that the T&Cs are wildly out from what happens is , to me, a lot lower than the likelihood that there is more information to be obtained from the person

As far as the OP goes, it reads that information was provided, just not acted on
Dave Noble is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 6:05 am
  #59  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
All you are doing is highlighting a situation where either

[a] Qantas made an error and the person should pursue it further to get the transferred points back or
[b] that the information provided by this person is either incorrect or incomplete

The likelihood that the T&Cs are wildly out from what happens is , to me, a lot lower than the likelihood that there is more information to be obtained from the person

As far as the OP goes, it reads that information was provided, just not acted on
Well all I can say Dave is your interpretation of ambiguity in written copy wouldn't pass muster in the industries and scenarios that I encounter professionally. Vive la difference as they say!

Similarly, your assessments or risk and probability analysis also differ wildly to my own. Again, vive la difference!

IMHO it is unfortunate that your logical process leads you to a position where you have so little trust in others' reportage of experiences.
Platy is offline  
Old Oct 14, 17, 7:17 am
  #60  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
There's a certain ....
There's a certain irony in the person who criticised another FTer's comments on the basis of that FTer's alleged "world view" so clearly adopting a position of their own that QF is in the wrong unless it is proved to be in the right.”


My response is directed at others have been forthright in implying dishonest reportage (“your friend may not have told you the whole truth”) and unhelpful stereotyping (“The same people who rant on FT about honest dealings with consumers”) and referring to the discussion as “embarrassing”.

I accept your experiences are different and have acknowledged such (as you point out), but several on this thread refuse to place the same level of trust in another.

I have the example of my friend. No email and points swiped. Credit card transfer not accepted as earn to keep account alive. No reinstatement challenge offered. IMHO that puts QF in the wrong on a number of counts, and I’m inclined to trust the person involved (who is so tuned into T&Cs that they ask questions about privacy compliance when they swipe ID in a club!).

Various people refuse to believe the story. So be it. The point I’m making is why bother sharing on this blog if folk are going to presume dishonesty, some sort of conspiratorial rant, or deem the information offered as inaccurate due to some personal perceptions of plausibility?


And as you now seem to have been backed into a position of resorting to casting doubt on the integrity of those who have been posting

Seriously? Folk call out the honesty of the story and then I’m the one who is guilty of casting doubt on people’s integrity?

I have some concrete examples to offer of what QF does to notify of imminent points expiry.

Which are welcome and have been acknowledged (as you note). (I hope you are across the Alaska Mileage Plan earn rates for BA flights?).

QF is doing more than the T&C require it to do - ie QF is sending specific emails warning of points expiry, when the T&C do not actually require it”

Practices, which may or may not have operated at the time of my friend’s example and may or may not have been applied even if they were.

Your friend should take it up with QF, point it out, and pursue the complaint. On the facts which you've mentioned, someone has clearly made a mistake.”

Yes, thanks – he did. QF refused to recognise the credit card transfer as earn activity to negate expiry. Hence my interest in this particular thread – what does QF actually do about expiry notification, do Amex MR transfer count, etc. I would imagine if anyone else herein lost 100,000 points in such circumstances they would be equally nonplussed. Surely questions worth asking?
Platy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: