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QFF cancelled with no notice [points expiry]

QFF cancelled with no notice [points expiry]

Old Oct 13, 17, 1:18 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by THR View Post
It is very, very easy to maintain Qantas points - activity is not hard.
Exactly. There is an absolute plethora of ways to earn (and burn) QF points. In fact critics of the programme often say it's hardly a frequent flyer programme anymore. You don't have to step onto a QF plane at all and some earn methods don't even require a cash spend.
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Old Oct 13, 17, 1:33 am
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Platy View Post
The airline should take responsibility to inform their customers with a notification and make the expiry tally easily accessible online to the individual member (if they are now doing this, then well and good).
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
In any case, if QF is now attempting to notify its members of impending loss of accounts balances the question is moot (but certainly wasn't when my friend lost his points).
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
IIRC this layout is only a few days old (so calling people out on their past experiences is misplaced?)....
Originally Posted by Platy View Post
Until recently QF appears to have been out of step with industry practice on this (expiry information clearly upon accessing one's account online). That now seems to have been corrected given the examples and screen shots provided above.
There is nothing new about what QF is doing.

I easily found the previous email that QF sent about 18 months previously (about December 2015) on the same subject.

For context: For a number of years I've had a nearly-constant QF points balance (of over 300,000 points) because of a lack of decent opportunities to use them. But I have managed to trigger one small transaction each time my 18-month limit was about to expire in order to keep all of the points alive. In December 2015, the 18-month limit was about to expire. After it was reset, the limit was about to expire in August 2017. Hence these two emails.

Having a slightly deeper dig into earlier emails, I also found emails to my companion and another friend with a subject line "Important information about your Frequent Flyer points balance" with the internal heading of the email saying "Your Frequent Flyer points are due to expire" (April 2012 and August 2012).

The warning banner on the QF website is not new, either. But it's only there when you have points that are soon to expire, and it disappears when you reset the clock. (I posted about this back in May 2016: Extending validity of Qantas miles.) I imagine that is why most regular contributors to this board don't recall seeing it, just as most regular contributors to this board won't get the warning emails themselves.

There was a time when QF did better - the printable activity statement explicitly gave you the date of points expiry. But both that system and the current website warnings do require you to log in to the website. It sounds like both the OP and her husband were quite possibly completely unaware that there was any expiry period at all, and in any event hadn't logged into the website for a very long period of time - so even if QF put up flashing lights and dancing girls on the website it wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever.

And if both the OP and her husband ignore emails whose subject lines are along the lines of "Your Qantas Points are due to expire" (May 2017) and "Don't let your Qantas Points expire" (December 2015), apparently on the grounds that they're spam, what more can you reasonably expect Qantas to do?

Last edited by Globaliser; Oct 13, 17 at 1:54 am
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Old Oct 13, 17, 1:10 pm
  #33  
 
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Welcome to the Club

Couldn't agree more, Qantas is clearly trying hide the fact that points are expiring.

How hard would it be for them to send a seperate email with the subject line 'Points Expiring Soon'

No instead they choose to hide it in the hope that loyal customers who have kept them in business will miss it and lose their hard earned points - how's that for loyalty!!

Whoever thought this practice up should be fired but instead probably received a promotion.

I never received any emails, in fine print or not, warning me of my point expiry.

I'll be emailing Qantas CEO Alan Joyce now, no way I'm giving up on this. Did you approach the ACCC?







Originally Posted by garykung View Post
Let me put this in another way.

If OP attempts to seek redress from a consumer protection agency, that consumer protection agency must be able to prove what the OP encountered was either unfair and deceptive, or illegal.

The problem is there is nothing unfair and deceptive. At the minimum, the expiration clause is not a recent addition. Even it is, QF should have given notices to all members regarding the changes.

So OP is pretty much at the mercy of QF.
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Old Oct 13, 17, 1:33 pm
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Mozo View Post
How hard would it be for them to send a seperate email with the subject line 'Points Expiring Soon'
Please see my immediately preceding post.
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Old Oct 13, 17, 2:53 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by IMOA View Post
Which counts as activity so the points wouldn't expire. I suspect your friend may not have told you the whole truth and that you may be somewhat predisposed to believing the worst about Qantas.
Well you're entitled to your opinion of course (although your implication that he is untruthful is bordering on the offensive) - all I can relay is that my friend is an extremely thorough and detailed sort of guy (IT / multimedia / product marketing background) and I have successfully placed my trust in him in various business deals over the years and never found him nothing less that a person of absolute competence and integrity.

My predisposition is to expect service in line with that which a customer might reasonably expect. Generally, in forming an opinion my reference points are:

1. Need to comply with the relevant trade practices legislation (e.g. honest dealings with consumers)
2. Need to comply with the relevant consumer protection legislation (e.g. product /service is fit for purpose for the price paid)
3. The company's own guidelines and conduct and ethics and customer charter (e.g. transparency in dealing with customers)

I'm also predisposed to a perception that attentive customer service wins and retains customers in a competitive market. Some others herein seem to differ in their viewpoint.

That said, to take a position that somebody else's experience must be dishonestly related because it doesn't fit with your world view is somewhat unfortunate (but commonly the case on Flyertalk).

Do you really think QF wiping out a significant number of points from an account recently transferred from a credit card makes good business sense?
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Old Oct 13, 17, 3:22 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Platy View Post
That said, to take a position that somebody else's experience must be dishonestly related because it doesn't fit with your world view is somewhat unfortunate (but commonly the case on Flyertalk).

Do you really think QF wiping out a significant number of points from an account recently transferred from a credit card makes good business sense?
It's not a question of "world view", though, is it? If transferring in miles from a credit card resets the clock for expiry, then either QF has made a mistake and should put it right (about which surely nobody could disagree), or something is not right with the story.
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Old Oct 13, 17, 3:29 pm
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
If transferring in miles from a credit card resets the clock for expiry, then either QF has made a mistake and should put it right (about which surely nobody could disagree), or something is not right with the story.

But that's the question!

I've been looking over the T&Cs kindly referenced by the links in Dave Noble's post above.

I am not sure (and it isn't clearly stated) that a transfer of points counts as "earn". In fact it may not.

It's clear you can earn points through spend on certain credit cards, which is articulated on the QF web pages - but that may refer to those credit cards that are dedicated to QF point earn.

I can't find reference specifically to the instance of a credit card transfer such as one from Amex MR. Note that transfer from business rewards and family members do not contribute to earn activity.

It could be the case that such a transfer is not counted as earn for the purposes of points expiry - in which case QF could legitimately hoover the points booty on an otherwise inactive account.

Whether that is fair and reasonable or not could the the subject of further debate.

Similarly, whether QF should reasonably offer a chance at reinstatement in such circumstances as my friend experienced.

Thanks for the example of emails received - in answer to your question above about what else could QF do...well certainly clarify the position on whether credit card transfer counts as earn and have a formal / published means of points reinstatement (as some other airlines do)

Last edited by Platy; Oct 13, 17 at 3:37 pm
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Old Oct 13, 17, 3:30 pm
  #38  
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As to this particular instance, it is irrelevant what QF did and did not do. OP refers to t&c and other emails as "rubbish" and "fine print" which he cannot be bothered to read.

That is fine and it is the OP's choice. But, he cannot then he heard to whinge that he was not notified, whether in 6, 8, or 72-point font.

The same people who rant on FT about honest dealings with consumers cannot also rant when a contract is written in plain English, the consumer is self-evidently literate in English, it is acknowledged by the consumer, and then sloughed off.
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Old Oct 13, 17, 4:26 pm
  #39  
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Qantas used to clearly display the expiry month for all members when logged on but removed that over two years ago.

I have no doubt it was deliberate - a likely effort to increase "breakage".
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Old Oct 13, 17, 5:03 pm
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Platy View Post
But that's the question!

I've been looking over the T&Cs kindly referenced by the links in Dave Noble's post above.

I am not sure (and it isn't clearly stated) that a transfer of points counts as "earn". In fact it may not.
The terms state

Originally Posted by T&C
9.2.2 Effective until 15 March 2017, all Points held in a Qantas Frequent Flyer account of a non-Active Member will expire at midnight Sydney, Australia time at the end of the 18th consecutive month for which the Member has not earned Points or Status Credits or redeemed Points (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member and excluding any transfer of Points from Qantas Business Rewards).
It seems clearly stated that all points earning es eligible for date reset other than
[a] transfer of points to a family member
[b] transfer of points from a family member
[c] transfer of Points from Qantas Business Rewards


If the person earned points from those, the clock would have been due to be reset. If the points transfer was from another source than one of those, then Qantas made an error. If Qantas made no error, then it would logically follow that the activity came from one of those 3 items


Originally Posted by Platy
I can't find reference specifically to the instance of a credit card transfer such as one from Amex MR. Note that transfer from business rewards and family members do not contribute to earn activity.
That it is not in the explicit list of exceptions would cover it


As far as notification goes, the T&Cs indicate that since 16 March, QF does inform members by the following methods

Originally Posted by T&C
(a) Online activity statements display a warning to the Member;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter.
Unless this happened to OP before March 16 , then notification would made available to the OP
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Old Oct 13, 17, 5:12 pm
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
That it is not in the explicit list of exceptions would cover it
That may be one logical interpretation, but not the only position QF might elect to take if challenged on the issue (they could equally well claim that credit card transfer is not specified on the earn list and the exemptions list is not definitive or exhaustive).

In my friend's case they took the position that the credit card transfer did not count as earn.

In either case, since a whole range of other earn methods is clearly articulated IMHO it would be reasonable for QF to directly address the instance of points transfers from generic credit cards in their T&Cs and website briefing on points expiry.

Last edited by Platy; Oct 13, 17 at 5:26 pm
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Old Oct 13, 17, 5:20 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
The same people who rant on FT about honest dealings with consumers cannot also rant when a contract is written in plain English, the consumer is self-evidently literate in English, it is acknowledged by the consumer, and then sloughed off.
You are conveniently ignoring that:

- there is more to "honest dealings" than just the way the contract is worded (e.g. how you go about advising the consumer of their points expiry)
- aspects of the contract are ambiguous (on generic credit card transfer for example)
- QF is behaving inconsistently (e.g. apparently allowing reinstatement opportunities for some but not others)

I trust you are fully briefed on Australian trade practices and consumer law and have read the Qf corporate guidelines on conduct and ethics in making sweeping generalisations about these "same people who rant on FT about honest dealings" (which might be perceived as derogation by fanciful stereotyping).
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Old Oct 13, 17, 11:43 pm
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
The terms state



It seems clearly stated that all points earning es eligible for date reset other than
[a] transfer of points to a family member
[b] transfer of points from a family member
[c] transfer of Points from Qantas Business Rewards


If the person earned points from those, the clock would have been due to be reset. If the points transfer was from another source than one of those, then Qantas made an error. If Qantas made no error, then it would logically follow that the activity came from one of those 3 items
Agree. It would be very cynical of QF to accept those points and then cancel them from inactivity a week or so later. I suspect there is more to the story.
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Old Oct 13, 17, 11:59 pm
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Platy View Post
That may be one logical interpretation, but not the only position QF might elect to take if challenged on the issue (they could equally well claim that credit card transfer is not specified on the earn list and the exemptions list is not definitive or exhaustive).

In my friend's case they took the position that the credit card transfer did not count as earn.
I do not see that there is any other logical interpretation - it is pretty clear that QF is listing the exception conditions for reset of timer

I am more inclined to believe that there is another aspect to this story aince what I can se is that if it was transfer other than listed exception

(a) that points expired and then credit card miles credited => the account would still have the credit card miles
(b) that the credit card miles created 1st which , unless one of the ineligible credits occurred, would have reset the timer; I would suspect that if it was a transfer. that it was not from a personal American Express card Membership Rewards
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Old Oct 14, 17, 12:56 am
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble View Post
I do not see that there is any other logical interpretation - it is pretty clear that QF is listing the exception conditions for reset of timer

I am more inclined to believe that there is another aspect to this story aince what I can se is that if it was transfer other than listed exception

(a) that points expired and then credit card miles credited => the account would still have the credit card miles
(b) that the credit card miles created 1st which , unless one of the ineligible credits occurred, would have reset the timer; I would suspect that if it was a transfer. that it was not from a personal American Express card Membership Rewards
Well, Dave, as explained above, there is another logical explanation; the T&Cs are not clear and your interpretation is incorrect, which is why I would personally like to see QF clarify the matter in writing in their T&Cs. Once you (rightly) observe that other types of transfer do not count, you might reasonably query whether a generic credit card transfer should also be on the exemption list.

I don't make the assumption (implicit in your position) that QF is able to muster copywriting content, which is perfectly articulated. It wouldn't be the first time that QF's wording was ambiguous (e.g. IIRC definitions of freedom too change flights under status credit bonuses have been the subject of previous discussions).

As to your further hypotheses the answers are:

(a) no; and
(b) no

I happen to chose to trust the story on this occasion with the benefit of knowing the person, but further discussion is thankless if folk are determined to convince themselves that the experiences as reported are somehow inaccurate or deceptive.

Are we at least agreed that the T&Cs could be clarified, on whether a generic credit card transfer is earn or not, QF choose to do so?

Last edited by Platy; Oct 14, 17 at 1:08 am
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