Skydive Gear Confiscated Erroneously
Jan 5, 2017, 12:20 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
Skydive Gear Confiscated Erroneously
Hi
Looking for some advice and assistance please.
Coming through Melbourne and our Skydive Gear (20k GBP) was confiscated by an airline manager based on them being "Dangerous Goods".
Now, despite proving that they are exempt of all travel regulations with the relevant documentation, including absent from Qantas's own DG list, and can be taken either as hand luggage or hold, they were impounded.
On one leg of our trip - a check-in assistant even called DG and validated they were not Dangerous Goods. (We did 7 legs with the same airline).
We had to catch our flight, and so had no other option but to resolve this from the UK.
An initial letter to customer complaints was futile, with them only repeating the ground manager's claim that Sports Parachutes are DG.
I have spoken with IATA, CAA and FAA and all agree they are not dangerous goods. The Australian Parachute Federation is also shocked!
Is it possible to file a formal complaint and get this investigated? If so what body? It has been suggested to try the British Consulate in Melbourne.
Is there any other avenue we can investigate? Ideally, I would like to contact the board.
I have tried the following email addresses from this forum, but all but geoff.dixon got bounced:-
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
Would any of you kind people, be able to update the above list?
We have written a formal letter, citing the relevant evidence. As it stands they are still classified by the airline as DG and cannot be moved. We do not have a contact in Melbourne who can assist us in freighting them in any other manner.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Looking for some advice and assistance please.
Coming through Melbourne and our Skydive Gear (20k GBP) was confiscated by an airline manager based on them being "Dangerous Goods".
Now, despite proving that they are exempt of all travel regulations with the relevant documentation, including absent from Qantas's own DG list, and can be taken either as hand luggage or hold, they were impounded.
On one leg of our trip - a check-in assistant even called DG and validated they were not Dangerous Goods. (We did 7 legs with the same airline).
We had to catch our flight, and so had no other option but to resolve this from the UK.
An initial letter to customer complaints was futile, with them only repeating the ground manager's claim that Sports Parachutes are DG.
I have spoken with IATA, CAA and FAA and all agree they are not dangerous goods. The Australian Parachute Federation is also shocked!
Is it possible to file a formal complaint and get this investigated? If so what body? It has been suggested to try the British Consulate in Melbourne.
Is there any other avenue we can investigate? Ideally, I would like to contact the board.
I have tried the following email addresses from this forum, but all but geoff.dixon got bounced:-
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
Would any of you kind people, be able to update the above list?
We have written a formal letter, citing the relevant evidence. As it stands they are still classified by the airline as DG and cannot be moved. We do not have a contact in Melbourne who can assist us in freighting them in any other manner.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Jan 5, 2017, 10:17 pm
#2
Join Date: May 2003
Programs: OW Emerald
Posts: 1,452
What remedy are you seeking?
If you want your confiscated possessions returned to you, then Qantas should do that; it is hard to imagine that Qantas would want to retain possession of your property for any reason, but if they do then it would become a legal matter.
If you want some type of compensation, you'd need to have some idea of what you're seeking (reimbursement of what expenses? inconvenience worth what?) and either ask for it from Qantas or from a court.
No matter how wrong Qantas were, it is unclear what "formal complaint", "formal letter" and "investigated" really mean - investigated by who and to what end?
If you want your confiscated possessions returned to you, then Qantas should do that; it is hard to imagine that Qantas would want to retain possession of your property for any reason, but if they do then it would become a legal matter.
If you want some type of compensation, you'd need to have some idea of what you're seeking (reimbursement of what expenses? inconvenience worth what?) and either ask for it from Qantas or from a court.
No matter how wrong Qantas were, it is unclear what "formal complaint", "formal letter" and "investigated" really mean - investigated by who and to what end?
Jan 5, 2017, 10:33 pm
#3
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,587
What matters is what the airline classifies as dangerous goods, not what others may think
Given that customer relations has reiterated what the airport personnell statet, it would seem that Qantas does classify it as dangerous and that the airport member of staff was not incorrect in his assertion
Have you asked Qantas for details on how to get the goods back to you? That would seem to be the relevant thing to do. I cannot see what point there is in just trying to spam various email addresses
Given that customer relations has reiterated what the airport personnell statet, it would seem that Qantas does classify it as dangerous and that the airport member of staff was not incorrect in his assertion
Have you asked Qantas for details on how to get the goods back to you? That would seem to be the relevant thing to do. I cannot see what point there is in just trying to spam various email addresses
Jan 5, 2017, 10:52 pm
#4
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Seattle, Wa
Programs: AS 75K & BR Member- HHonors Diamond - Hertz PC - Marriott Titanium - IHG Ambassador
Posts: 2,379
Welcome to flyertalk !
Well if it were my 20K worth of skydiving equipment of course I would want it back and frankly I'm surprised they didn't have a procedure to box it up and send it along on a flight for your retrieval.
It's lame that it happened to you. But remember DB Cooper ? Apparently so did your agent that flight.
Best of luck !
Well if it were my 20K worth of skydiving equipment of course I would want it back and frankly I'm surprised they didn't have a procedure to box it up and send it along on a flight for your retrieval.
It's lame that it happened to you. But remember DB Cooper ? Apparently so did your agent that flight.
Best of luck !
Jan 6, 2017, 1:10 am
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
Hi
Right now we simply want our goods back. As I live in London, I cannot fly back to resolve this - so simply what the DG label lifted, in order for them to be freighted back.
This kit takes 1 year to make and is not replaceable easily.
Dangerous goods are clearly defined by IATA, and come what may, Sports Parachutes are not Dangerous Goods.
Furthermore, they are not listed on Qantas's own website. We have the British and Australian Parachute Federations also testifying to this extent.
The Cypres AAD card states they are exempt of travel regulations and has a QR code for security / check-in personnel.
If the TSA can handle Sports Parachutes, I am sure anyone can!
Right now we simply want our goods back. As I live in London, I cannot fly back to resolve this - so simply what the DG label lifted, in order for them to be freighted back.
This kit takes 1 year to make and is not replaceable easily.
Dangerous goods are clearly defined by IATA, and come what may, Sports Parachutes are not Dangerous Goods.
Furthermore, they are not listed on Qantas's own website. We have the British and Australian Parachute Federations also testifying to this extent.
The Cypres AAD card states they are exempt of travel regulations and has a QR code for security / check-in personnel.
If the TSA can handle Sports Parachutes, I am sure anyone can!
Jan 6, 2017, 1:11 am
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
What remedy are you seeking?
If you want your confiscated possessions returned to you, then Qantas should do that; it is hard to imagine that Qantas would want to retain possession of your property for any reason, but if they do then it would become a legal matter.
If you want some type of compensation, you'd need to have some idea of what you're seeking (reimbursement of what expenses? inconvenience worth what?) and either ask for it from Qantas or from a court.
No matter how wrong Qantas were, it is unclear what "formal complaint", "formal letter" and "investigated" really mean - investigated by who and to what end?
If you want your confiscated possessions returned to you, then Qantas should do that; it is hard to imagine that Qantas would want to retain possession of your property for any reason, but if they do then it would become a legal matter.
If you want some type of compensation, you'd need to have some idea of what you're seeking (reimbursement of what expenses? inconvenience worth what?) and either ask for it from Qantas or from a court.
No matter how wrong Qantas were, it is unclear what "formal complaint", "formal letter" and "investigated" really mean - investigated by who and to what end?
Jan 6, 2017, 1:16 am
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
What matters is what the airline classifies as dangerous goods, not what others may think
Given that customer relations has reiterated what the airport personnell statet, it would seem that Qantas does classify it as dangerous and that the airport member of staff was not incorrect in his assertion
Have you asked Qantas for details on how to get the goods back to you? That would seem to be the relevant thing to do. I cannot see what point there is in just trying to spam various email addresses
Given that customer relations has reiterated what the airport personnell statet, it would seem that Qantas does classify it as dangerous and that the airport member of staff was not incorrect in his assertion
Have you asked Qantas for details on how to get the goods back to you? That would seem to be the relevant thing to do. I cannot see what point there is in just trying to spam various email addresses
The IATA set out the classification on Dangerous Goods. We have it in writing Sports Parachutes are not Dangerous Goods.
As stated in my previous reply, Qantas's own website, states to verify with the CAA and IATA. They are not listed, and we have verified with the relevant agencies.
The fact we declared them at each departure, was courtesy, and to avoid being hauled out of the business lounge - which happened on this trip.
Would being called out, be recorded in a log?
Jan 6, 2017, 2:09 am
#8
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,587
Qantas is not IATA. It does not stop the airline being more conservative on safety beyond the mimimum requirements iirc
My experiences of Customer Relations is that it doesn't just reply without thinking, so I would be incliined to believe that if the staff at airport stated it was dangerous and that customer relations confirms it, then it is likely the case
I would be focussing on getting the items back rather than trying to find people to spam
There are processes for transporting certain items that would be classed as dangerous goods , so I would suggest phoning customer relations and discussing options to get the goods delivered
If you phone customer relations and ask the agent to check again whether it is a dangerous good as far as QF is concerned, then if it is confirmed that there should have been no issue, maybe Qantas will provide some compensation. Conversely it may be confirmed and will know for future trips
My experiences of Customer Relations is that it doesn't just reply without thinking, so I would be incliined to believe that if the staff at airport stated it was dangerous and that customer relations confirms it, then it is likely the case
I would be focussing on getting the items back rather than trying to find people to spam
There are processes for transporting certain items that would be classed as dangerous goods , so I would suggest phoning customer relations and discussing options to get the goods delivered
If you phone customer relations and ask the agent to check again whether it is a dangerous good as far as QF is concerned, then if it is confirmed that there should have been no issue, maybe Qantas will provide some compensation. Conversely it may be confirmed and will know for future trips
Last edited by Dave Noble; Jan 6, 2017 at 2:45 am
Jan 6, 2017, 2:49 am
#9
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Portland OR Double Emerald (QF and AA), DL PM/MM, Starwood Plat
Posts: 19,589
As for recourse, QF states " Dangerous Goods may only be transported as freight after being packed, labelled and documented by qualified Dangerous Goods acceptance personnel." So the OP's immediate concern is how to contact QF in order to arrange for this -- or does a person has to show up at MEL left baggage claim in order to accomplish this?
Anyone have any contacts at QF? I don't but I'd start with phoning the MEL baggage services (open 7am to 9pm so before noon UK time) +61383364444
Jan 6, 2017, 2:53 am
#11
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,587
Jan 6, 2017, 3:00 am
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
Of course QF can and does set its own criteria -- but the OP's point is that QF has set the criteria of IATA and CASA being the determining authority for what constitutes dangerous goods and how they can be carried. Qantas repeatedly, clearly and unambiguously states this on their web site, see for example http://www.qantas.com./travel/airlin...lobal/en#jump0 stating "Dangerous Goods are items that may endanger the safety of an aircraft or persons on board the aircraft. They are also known as restricted articles and hazardous materials. Their carriage on aircraft is governed by the IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority Regulations."
As for recourse, QF states " Dangerous Goods may only be transported as freight after being packed, labelled and documented by qualified Dangerous Goods acceptance personnel." So the OP's immediate concern is how to contact QF in order to arrange for this -- or does a person has to show up at MEL left baggage claim in order to accomplish this?
Anyone have any contacts at QF? I don't but I'd start with phoning the MEL baggage services (open 7am to 9pm so before noon UK time) +61383364444
As for recourse, QF states " Dangerous Goods may only be transported as freight after being packed, labelled and documented by qualified Dangerous Goods acceptance personnel." So the OP's immediate concern is how to contact QF in order to arrange for this -- or does a person has to show up at MEL left baggage claim in order to accomplish this?
Anyone have any contacts at QF? I don't but I'd start with phoning the MEL baggage services (open 7am to 9pm so before noon UK time) +61383364444
So the first thing we require is that they are declassified as DG. Without that we cannot repatriate them home.
I can hardly fly from LHW to MEL to resolve this.
We have no contacts locally to resolve this :-(
Jan 6, 2017, 3:13 am
#13
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
One off-the-wall thought: Have you contacted your travel insurer to ask whether a dispute of this kind is covered by your policy? And even if it is not, might the insurer be able to suggest a local agent who might be able to help?
Jan 6, 2017, 3:29 am
#14
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,338
This is REALLY weird.
Given the level of detail available....at least to the TSA about rigs and AADs it beggars belief that QANTAS either does NOT know anything about them (as apparently demonstrated) OR has chosen to ignore International precedent and apply outlandish rules of their own......
(Not likely given all the other flights you did)
PERHAPS the problem is simply that this gear is not specifically addressed on their website ...assuming that is the same info available to staff.
Still... avalanche rescue backpacks ARE mentioned.... and are allowed as carry on or checked baggage with certain conditions... one of which is that the pyrotechnic trigger contains "no more than 200mg of division 1.4S explosive"
I can't find how much the trigger on a cypres contains...but if as I suspect, it IS within those limits that could/might be a basis for arguing your case???
Those of you saying "maybe the agent was right" "it is dangerous goods" might try to explain why the gear was allowed on SEVEN other QF flights.
Were all those other check in agents wrong and incompetent? If the gear IS "DG" (which I don't accept for a minute) then what does that say about the airline?
Given the level of detail available....at least to the TSA about rigs and AADs it beggars belief that QANTAS either does NOT know anything about them (as apparently demonstrated) OR has chosen to ignore International precedent and apply outlandish rules of their own......
(Not likely given all the other flights you did)
PERHAPS the problem is simply that this gear is not specifically addressed on their website ...assuming that is the same info available to staff.
Still... avalanche rescue backpacks ARE mentioned.... and are allowed as carry on or checked baggage with certain conditions... one of which is that the pyrotechnic trigger contains "no more than 200mg of division 1.4S explosive"
I can't find how much the trigger on a cypres contains...but if as I suspect, it IS within those limits that could/might be a basis for arguing your case???
Those of you saying "maybe the agent was right" "it is dangerous goods" might try to explain why the gear was allowed on SEVEN other QF flights.
Were all those other check in agents wrong and incompetent? If the gear IS "DG" (which I don't accept for a minute) then what does that say about the airline?
Last edited by trooper; Jan 6, 2017 at 3:35 am
Jan 6, 2017, 4:07 am
#15
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 6
Alas, we have tried the travel insurance route - with no success.
Now looking at Credit Card company legal assistance.
The simple fact is Sports Parachutes are exempt :- https://downloads.cypres.aero/airtra...uthorities.zip
Otherwise, as stated by Customer Care, we would require prior approval. This is not the case, or they would not have been accepted. They would also be listed on the DG website.
Furthermore, as stated, in Sydney the check in assistant contacted DG and verified they were exempt and allowed them in the hold.
It is clear that the procedures for DG and training is not consistent across the QF group.
Now looking at Credit Card company legal assistance.
The simple fact is Sports Parachutes are exempt :- https://downloads.cypres.aero/airtra...uthorities.zip
Otherwise, as stated by Customer Care, we would require prior approval. This is not the case, or they would not have been accepted. They would also be listed on the DG website.
Furthermore, as stated, in Sydney the check in assistant contacted DG and verified they were exempt and allowed them in the hold.
It is clear that the procedures for DG and training is not consistent across the QF group.