![]() |
Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
(Post 12299777)
I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly. Had he simply played along and captured the recording, this would be a much easier case. Now, the TSA can say something like "We did not allow him past the checkpoint because he failed to cooperate with the screening process. He was allowed to proceed once the FBI determined that they had no interest in investigating the matter further." Or something along those lines. Just my opinion.
As far as his being cleared to pass the check, listen to the recording. After the police cleared him the TSO can clearly be heard to say that he is not going to allow Bierfeldt past the checkpoint. |
Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
(Post 12299777)
I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly. Had he simply played along and captured the recording, this would be a much easier case. Now, the TSA can say something like "We did not allow him past the checkpoint because he failed to cooperate with the screening process. He was allowed to proceed once the FBI determined that they had no interest in investigating the matter further." Or something along those lines. Just my opinion.
Further, your argument highlighted above serves to bring to the fore that the TSA is searching for more than WEI. I don't think they will go there. |
Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
(Post 12299017)
OK, re-reading the directive, it seems as though it uses the term "contraband" is used in an unusual manner. I may be wrong, but I believe that this simply means an item "for referral to law enforcement" and not necessarily an item that cannot clear the checkpoint. I think this is within the spirit of what I had previously read. Thoughts?
1. anything prohibited by law from being imported or exported. 2. goods imported or exported illegally. 3. illegal or prohibited trade; smuggling. Carrying large sums of cash in the United States is not illegal. The operations directive includes cash as the last item of list of items that are already illegal, implying that cash is now illegal. And to the average TSO they would read it as such, otherwise the St. Louis incident would have never have happened. Frankly I am mystified as to why the directive was ever issued. TSO's should contact law enforcement when they find items that are already illegal under the law. Cash is not illegal and the TSA is overstepping its authority by declaring cash as contraband/illegal. |
Originally Posted by TSORon
(Post 12295763)
I usually select the individuals for the random pat-downs far in advance of their reaching the WTMD, using a criteria known only to me and it changes each and every time I am rotated to the search area. Red shoes, bald, blond, flip-flops, I never really know until I am there
Let me know, I would be glad to give you the name of the place in a pm. I can’t see any rhyme or reason to most of the whining here, other than it is designed to be destructive to the TSA. |
Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
(Post 12299777)
I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly. Had he simply played along and captured the recording, this would be a much easier case.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled. |
Originally Posted by magellan315
(Post 12300303)
Contraband is defined as
1. anything prohibited by law from being imported or exported. 2. goods imported or exported illegally. 3. illegal or prohibited trade; smuggling. Carrying large sums of cash in the United States is not illegal. The operations directive includes cash as the last item of list of items that are already illegal, implying that cash is now illegal. And to the average TSO they would read it as such, otherwise the St. Louis incident would have never have happened. Frankly I am mystified as to why the directive was ever issued. TSO's should contact law enforcement when they find items that are already illegal under the law. Cash is not illegal and the TSA is overstepping its authority by declaring cash as contraband/illegal. |
Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
(Post 12299777)
I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly.
|
Originally Posted by halls120
(Post 12300385)
Our Constitutional right to be free of an unlawful search of our person should never be dependent upon our "demeanor" at the time of the search.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled. I don't know how the TSA will try to defend the situation, but Bierfeldt's actions certainly add several avenues. While it has been held that the simple avoidance of law enforcement is not probable cause in itself, add the circumstances and there is certainly a logical path. Would a reasonable person allow himself to be detained if a simple explanation would prevent it? Would a reasonable person believe that the TSA and police were going to conspire against him because of his political leanings? If Bierfeldt believed that he was going to be labeled a "terrorist" and there was evidence of his connection to a "radical" group, why wouldn't he clarify the record? Again, I'm not arguing about the legality of the search. That has to be determined in a court of law. You are correct, rights should never be determined by demeanor. |
Originally Posted by N965VJ
(Post 12300476)
Really, when he asked questions with calm decorum while TSOs and LEOs hurled expletives at him?
|
Originally Posted by halls120
(Post 12300385)
Our Constitutional right to be free of an unlawful search of our person should never be dependent upon our "demeanor" at the time of the search.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled. |
Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
(Post 12300546)
The recording certainly doesn't show professionalism, but waving a red flag at the bull isn't always the answer. A calm decorum is evidence of very little, passive-aggressiveness is just as valid with silence or rude remarks.
|
Originally Posted by doober
(Post 12300294)
His demeanor was not out of line. He was asking about his rights in light of a search that the TSA was taking too far.
Further, your argument highlighted above serves to bring to the fore that the TSA is searching for more than WEI. I don't think they will go there. On your second point, I'm sure they will say the money was found incident to a lawful search for WEI. This discovery resulted in the police being notified who subsequently assumed the investigation. The legal questions I see here are: 1. Can the $10,000 directive be upheld? 2. Was the money discovered during a search for WEI and located in a place where WEI could be? 3. At what point was it discovered that the amount of cash was below the directive's threshold? 4. Was there reasonable suspicion before the amount was confirmed? 5. After the amount was confirmed, was there a reason to continue the investigation? 6. If there was reason to continue the investigation, what facts determined the outcome? |
Originally Posted by We Will Never Forget
(Post 12298455)
Wow, one group of idiots squaring off against another.
I guess I'd have to stand on the TSA side of the fence on this one, as they are the lesser of two evils. Maybe if a respectable group with sensibility was involved, we could expect positive results. |
Originally Posted by IslandBased
(Post 12300634)
Especially if you are looking for the "big score" to justify your existence.:rolleyes:
|
Originally Posted by goalie
(Post 12300673)
there is a gross misconception that the alcu is just a group of left-wing nut job lawyers who fight for their own left-wing nut jobs. they are actually equal opportunity nut-jobs ;) and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sides
It's like saying "What about all the good things Hitler did?". But yes, they have been on both sides of the fence. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:31 pm. |
This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.