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Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 11709532)
No. If a TSO comes across a large amount of cash that appears to be $10,000 or more, then the TSO should determine whether or not the passenger is flying internationally. If not flying internationally, then the TSO should finish the search for the suspected prohibited item (assuming this was prompted by something the x-ray operator saw). If no prohibited items are in the bag, then the passenger is clear to proceed.
No need to play Dick Tracy or any other "Richard." |
Originally Posted by halls120
(Post 11709580)
You are going seriously equate a firefigher saving a kitten with a TSO deciding to act a as a surrogate LEO? :D
There is nothing inherently wrong with a TSO, when confronted with a potential situation that might require the assistance of a trained LEO, from bringing them in. Like when someone is carrying more than 10,000 dollars in cash. I realize that in other cultures, that might be normal, but in the US it isn't, and LEO's should definitely be called in. It is no different than me calling the VA State Police when I see a driver who is acting like he/she is operating a vehicle under the influence. Would you please reference the Code that states this? Again, TSA has no role in the reporting of cash movement. There are plenty of laws currently on the books; Currency Transaction Reports (FINCEN Form 104), Report of International Transportation of Currency or Monetary Instruments (FINCEN Form 105), Suspicious Activity Report (multiple form numbers), and last if not least FINCEN 314 Reporting where law enforcement agencies require financial institution to report on accounts without warrants of any kind, brought to you courtesy of the Patriot Act. No, we have enough government poking their noses into citizens personal business, we don't need the addition of TSA! |
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
(Post 11710003)
So you equate that someone carrying more than $10k dollars is doing something illegal. $9,999.99 is legal in your mind but $10,000.01 is suddenly illegal.
Would you please reference the Code that states this? Again, TSA has no role in the reporting of cash movement. There are plenty of laws currently on the books; Currency Transaction Reports (FINCEN Form 104), Report of International Transportation of Currency or Monetary Instruments (FINCEN Form 105), Suspicious Activity Report (multiple form numbers), and last if not least FINCEN 314 Reporting where law enforcement agencies require financial institution to report on accounts without warrants of any kind, brought to you courtesy of the Patriot Act. No, we have enough government poking their noses into citizens personal business, we don't need the addition of TSA! I realize 10,001 is over the line, and 9,999 isn't. When it comes to trying to define a bright line, the devil is in the details. Here's how I see it. If TSO sees a large wad of cash in the possession of a passenger, I don't want the TSA to become a criminal investigator and detain the person at the checkpoint. If the TSO believes it may be, from observation, a sum that does trigger legal scrutiny, and the passenger is departing the US on an international flight, what the TSO should do is NOT detain the passenger, but record his/her name, let the passenger leave if he/she has otherwise finished screening, and then notify a LEO. IOW, act just like a citizen who sees a potential crime in action. Let me ask you this. If the passenger drops a wad of cash, and blurts out words to suggest - or stupidly admits - to carrying over 10,000 AND he/she is going international, would you forbit the TSO from detaining the passenger? I don't want TSA doing things that aren't within their mission. That said, we shouldn't want a TSA employee to ignore an obvious illegal act. |
Originally Posted by halls120
(Post 11711049)
Let me ask you this. If the passenger drops a wad of cash, and blurts out words to suggest - or stupidly admits - to carrying over 10,000 AND he/she is going international, would you forbit the TSO from detaining the passenger?
I don't want TSA doing things that aren't within their mission. That said, we shouldn't want a TSA employee to ignore an obvious illegal act. |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 11709532)
No. If a TSO comes across a large amount of cash that appears to be $10,000 or more, then the TSO should determine whether or not the passenger is flying internationally. If not flying internationally, then the TSO should finish the search for the suspected prohibited item (assuming this was prompted by something the x-ray operator saw). If no prohibited items are in the bag, then the passenger is clear to proceed.
No need to play Dick Tracy or any other "Richard." Okay, I was behind the guy with the cash. Now it is my turn through the checkpoint. I have some moths in my carryon luggage that I may or may not have a PPQ 526 permit from APHIS to allow interstate transport of my moths. Will the TSO check with the USDA about my creatures? |
No amount of cash is going to make an aircraft fall out of the sky.
In the past, I’ve travelled with large amounts of cash from working with non-profit 501(c)3 organizations at fund raising activities. I never carried the cash in a lock box because, well they look like the kinds of things you put a lot of money in (besides, you can jimmy them open with one of TSORon’s Prohibited Butter Knives™ anyway). So at the events the cash was carried in an inconspicuous soft-sided insulated container, the kind you would put your lunch in. When it was time to fly home, the container went inside my carry on bag. Oh, the horror of Artful Concealment! But guess what? I never received the Steve Bierfeldt treatment. The private security firms that were operating the checkpoints had no need or desire to justify their existence by publically patting themselves on the back every time they found a petty criminal that posed no danger to commercial aviation. |
Originally Posted by Trollkiller
(Post 11709250)
Show me where that limitation is placed in stone.
A firefighter's job description does not include giving oxygen to an animal but the papers are filled with stories of that very thing. I do not hear people complain that saving a kitten is outside a firefighter's job description, even though we pay for the firefighters, equipment and consumables. The TSA begs to differ, Assisting Law Enforcement. When you read the stories they show that the TSA is making an effort to raise awareness by their employee about suspicious non safety behaviors or items. The TSOs DO have a basis to decide when a sum of money becomes suspicious, the amount was in that directive that Blogger Bob was kind enough to grace us with. According to it any monies totaling $10k or above is to be referred to a LEO as contraband. You need to prove to me that keeping dangerous items off the plane and out of the sterile area is the TSOs ONLY charge. |
Originally Posted by Himeno
(Post 11709111)
Looking for cash, in any amount, is outside the job description of a TSO. Cash is not a danger to air travel, as such it is none of the TSA’s business.
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 11709532)
No. If a TSO comes across a large amount of cash that appears to be $10,000 or more, then the TSO should determine whether or not the passenger is flying internationally. If not flying internationally, then the TSO should finish the search for the suspected prohibited item (assuming this was prompted by something the x-ray operator saw). If no prohibited items are in the bag, then the passenger is clear to proceed.
No need to play Dick Tracy or any other "Richard." btw, glad to see someone else likes to use the "richard reference" ;) |
Originally Posted by polonius
(Post 11709433)
Or what if they were killing goats naked? Please, that's a silly analogy and you know it. And I think if some Brazilian model travelled to the U.S.A. and dressed the same way she would at Copacobana then, yes, I think her fellow beachgoers would mostly be "forgiving";)
Originally Posted by polonius
(Post 11709433)
The issue of the inherent suspiciousness of "large amounts" of cash goes to the issue of whether or not "unusual" = "suspicious". Some people think they have some sort of natural right to be a busybody, and that anyone doing anything "unusual" is under some sort of obligation to explain themselves. Hence, when these people work as TSOs, they think it's their job to alert to "unusual" amounts of cash, "unusual" ID cards, "unusual" itineraries, etc. etc.
Originally Posted by polonius
(Post 11709433)
As I've said before, freedom to do only what is "normal" is no freedom at all. The real barometer of society's freedom is exactly that -- how they deal with "unusual" people.
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Originally Posted by Trollkiller
(Post 11711570)
TSOs are not just busy bodies but are trained busy bodies. In their training to find "artfully" concealed items the TSA encourage and train TSOs to notice unusual and therefore suspicious actions or items. Do we ask them to turn a blind eye to potentially illegal activity?
Counterassertion: TSA encourages its TSOs to use their administrative search powers to bypass the warrant requirement of the 4th amendment. One unchallenged example from TSA's website: LEO's and CBP may consider money contraband but thats their decision to make not ours. We have the authority to search your property at the checkpiont, LEO's do not. If I find drugs in a backpack I have to physically remove them from the backpack and hold them up to the LEO for inspection, he can't reach into the bag. So our organizations work together. -- TSOWilliamReed This TSO knows a LEO "can't reach into the bag" because it would be an illegal search, so the TSO can act like the hands and eyes and do these illegal searches for them. |
Originally Posted by halls120
(Post 11711049)
As a US citizen, I don't need a provision of the US Code to authorize me to report a suspected crime.
I realize 10,001 is over the line, and 9,999 isn't. When it comes to trying to define a bright line, the devil is in the details. Here's how I see it. If TSO sees a large wad of cash in the possession of a passenger, I don't want the TSA to become a criminal investigator and detain the person at the checkpoint. If the TSO believes it may be, from observation, a sum that does trigger legal scrutiny, and the passenger is departing the US on an international flight, what the TSO should do is NOT detain the passenger, but record his/her name, let the passenger leave if he/she has otherwise finished screening, and then notify a LEO. IOW, act just like a citizen who sees a potential crime in action. Let me ask you this. If the passenger drops a wad of cash, and blurts out words to suggest - or stupidly admits - to carrying over 10,000 AND he/she is going international, would you forbit the TSO from detaining the passenger? I don't want TSA doing things that aren't within their mission. That said, we shouldn't want a TSA employee to ignore an obvious illegal act. If dropped and observed by a TSO no difference. It is not a responsibility of TSA to control cash regardless of amount. No illegal act was observed, no action is needed. TSA will not be ignoring an illegal act if they do not act on large sums of money since there is no law stating carriage of any sum is illegal. The only requirement is to file proper forms with the Port Officer when leaving or entering the country. I asked about legal code because from other comments you have made on this blog I thought you were in some area of law enforcement. Perhaps I am wrong. |
Cash, in and of itself, poses no threat. Maybe the guy won big in Vegas and wants to buy the entire plane a major drunk as they fly to the Cayman Islands. Its within his rights, and what he does with his winnings is non one's business but his own. Dont the bills say "for all debts public and private"? Nothing there about "as long as its less than $10k." He has it when he gets on, but not when the aircraft lands. 10k+ when be boards, no threat, no law breaking, but one heck of a group hangover at the end and he's broke again
Two can play the devils advocate thing, and while I may not support this argument I can certainly entertain the idea of limits. |
Originally Posted by TSORon
(Post 11712588)
Cash, in and of itself, poses no threat. Maybe the guy won big in Vegas and wants to buy the entire plane a major drunk as they fly to the Cayman Islands. Its within his rights, and what he does with his winnings is non one's business but his own. Dont the bills say "for all debts public and private"? Nothing there about "as long as its less than $10k." He has it when he gets on, but not when the aircraft lands. 10k+ when be boards, no threat, no law breaking, but one heck of a group hangover at the end and he's broke again
Two can play the devils advocate thing, and while I may not support this argument I can certainly entertain the idea of limits. |
Originally Posted by TSORon
(Post 11712588)
Cash, in and of itself, poses no threat. Maybe the guy won big in Vegas and wants to buy the entire plane a major drunk as they fly to the Cayman Islands. Its within his rights, and what he does with his winnings is non one's business but his own. Dont the bills say "for all debts public and private"? Nothing there about "as long as its less than $10k." He has it when he gets on, but not when the aircraft lands. 10k+ when be boards, no threat, no law breaking, but one heck of a group hangover at the end and he's broke again
Two can play the devils advocate thing, and while I may not support this argument I can certainly entertain the idea of limits. if a pax is flying internationally and has currency (or currency equivalent) exceeding $10,000 u.s, it is not the tso's job to determine anything-that job belongs to customs and it is their job to determine if the pax in question has filed fincen form 105, period. if a pax has u.s. currency (or currency equivalent ) exceeding $10,000 u.s. and they produce documentation that fincen form 105 has been properly filed, they must by law be sent on their way by customs without any further questioning or interference (but try telling that to the customs officer ;)). if a pax is flying domestically, it does not matter how much u.s. currency (or currency equivalent) the pax is carrying-period & end of story. sorry for sounding like such a hard a$$ but this has been my career for 30 years and i simply cannot see why something so simple can get so effed up by folks who have no business, let alone any authority, to act on it. |
Originally Posted by goalie
(Post 11713153)
emphasis mine kinda says it all right there, doesn't it? ;) but just in case.....from my ealrier post
When an agency like TSA has such severe tunnel vision I see little hope that they will ever understand the finer points of currency reporting. TSA has one aim only, to catch someone doing something even if it does not threaten transportation. |
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