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Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 11555101)
No, I would have demanded to see the GSC for my airline. If the TSO refused to give me my money back, I'd call a policeman and demand that the TSO be arrested for theft. If the TSO physically prevented me from retrieving my money, I'd call a policeman and demand that the TSO be arrested for robbery. And if the TSO put his hands on me, I would defend myself and then see that he is charged with battery.
I have had run-ins with TSA before, though none as dramatic as this. I don't have time to do a search right now, but I've previously detailed an incident at LAX where a TSO took my bag while I was bending down to tie my shoes. I hadn't the slightest hesitation about yelling, at the top of my lungs, "Stop right there and bring that bag back!" This resulted in quite a commotion at the WTMD, but the end result was a supervisor promised to talk to the TSO about not taking my property without permission or removing it from my sight. It only took a couple of extra minutes of my time. I want to be very clear: I have nothing but respect for law enforcement officers, even to the point of giving them considerable leeway when it involves what I consider border-line constitutional rights issues. The way I see it, LEOs are there to protect me and protect my property. They have a difficult, dangerous and demoralizing job and I will always try to cooperate with them. TSOs, on the other hand, serve no purpose at all. There function is to provide the allusion of security so that the Kettles and Gomers will continue to buy tickets to fly. They are not protecting me or my property, they merely protecting airline income and I already contribute enough to that. As long as TSOs are polite and professional, I will be polite in return and allow them to that which the courts have confirmed as constitutional, but only that which the courts have confirmed as constitutional. As soon as they cross the line into an unconstitutional and illegal usurpation of government power at the expense of my individual and inalienable rights, I will resist and will not cooperate, even if it means I might miss a flight or otherwise be delayed. TSA was created by an administration that had less regard for the Constitution than any other administration in history. TSA continues primarily due to momentum and the fact that the current administration has more pressing issues to deal with. I will, however, do my part by calling out any TSO that attempts to exceed the limited powers afforded to the government under the Constitution. More important, however, is your articulation of the correct approach to the TSA -- informed, assertive, but always courteous as long as they are willing to keep it that way. And I agree 100% on your views concerning the distinction between LEOs and TSOs as well. Whilst I do try to minimise my interactions with police, I do respect what they are doing and try to make clear that my reticence to communicate is nothing personal. |
cool it.
Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 11550661)
If a TSO touches you without permission, call a policeman and have him arrested for battery.
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Originally Posted by YXU Dude
(Post 11577751)
or ... you could just ask him not to do that again and avoid being seen as a stereotypically litigious american itching for a fight.
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Originally Posted by YXU Dude
(Post 11577751)
or ... you could just ask him not to do that again and avoid being seen as a stereotypically litigious american itching for a fight.
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Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 11578997)
You seem not to care about the Constitution. That's your choice.
Moreover, if you or I were to take a public office, we would take an oath to "protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic" whereas, in the land of the "Yxx" airports, they leave that part of a similar oath of office out. God save the Queen, President Horton, and the whale preserve in Manitoba... :D |
It seems that the TSA has got their legal counsel to answer the question, LINK. Welcome to America, your legal rights do not apply at a TSA checkpoint.
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Originally Posted by magellan315
(Post 11580853)
It seems that the TSA has got their legal counsel to answer the question, LINK. Welcome to America, your legal rights do not apply at a TSA checkpoint.
....would you please ask Francine to actually reply to the repeated question as to whether or not the traveler is REQUIRED BY LAW to answer those questions? That was the question in the St. Louis incident, and has continued to be the question from many on this blog, and that is the question that Francine has continued avoiding. |
Originally Posted by goalie
(Post 11580954)
actually she did the std tsa spatement and did not answer the question at all (and one of the posters asked her to please do so
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My take on it was "guilty until proven innocent", the TSO assumes you are doing something illegal and if they don't find your answers and demeanor acceptable you get to speak to law enforcement.
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Originally Posted by Francine Kerner, TSA Chief Counsel
TSA officers routinely come across evidence of criminal activity at the airport checkpoint.
College kids with fake IDs, petty thieves with stolen credit cards, illegal aliens trying to go home, someone wanted on a drug charge somewhere. None of which would make an aircraft fall out of the sky. All this does is give the TSA chances to pat themselves on the back for doing things beyond the scope of their mission. |
Originally Posted by magellan315
(Post 11581090)
My take on it was "guilty until proven innocent", the TSO assumes you are doing something illegal and if they don't find your answers and demeanor acceptable you get to speak to law enforcement.
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Originally Posted by rustyhaight
(Post 11580817)
Nor would he care about "THE Constitution" because he lives instead under a "Charter of Rights and Freedoms" written, some would suggest, taking from the "best" of our system and eliminating the "worst." :rolleyes: Notably, both "best" and "worst" are subjective terms...
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Originally Posted by magellan315
(Post 11580853)
It seems that the TSA has got their legal counsel to answer the question, LINK. Welcome to America, your legal rights do not apply at a TSA checkpoint.
"When presented with a passenger carrying a large sum of money through the screening checkpoint, the TSA officer will frequently engage in dialog with the passenger to determine whether a referral to law-enforcement authorities is warranted. The TSA officer may consider all circumstances in making the assessment, including the behavior and credibility of the passenger. Thus, a failure to be forthcoming may inform a TSA officer’s decision to call law-enforcement authorities." What she didn't state was the law: You are NOT required to answer any questions regarding cash. If the TSA refers you to law enforcement on the basis of your refusal to answer questions unrelated to security (or, better still, respond, "None of your business"), they are committing a violation of both the 1st and 5th Amendment. However, this "referral" will be interesting as TSA has absolutely no right to detain anyone, and no right to seize your money. |
Originally Posted by N965VJ
(Post 11581171)
[/yawn]
College kids with fake IDs, petty thieves with stolen credit cards, illegal aliens trying to go home, someone wanted on a drug charge somewhere. None of which would make an aircraft fall out of the sky. All this does is give the TSA chances to pat themselves on the back for doing things beyond the scope of their mission. 1. Tell their screeners to stop pretending they are Kojak at the checkpoints, especially when the role they play comes across more like Chief Wiggum and Barney Fife. 2. Get rid of their behavior detection officers. The TSA isn't doing an adequate job of finding prohibited items at the checkpoint-- they need extra resources there, and should not be having people playing Madam Cleo with passengers. 3. Get rid of their ID/boarding pass checkers. These people add no security whatsoever to the process. Half of the time these guys don't even bother reading the boarding pass (I've gotten through intentionally showing the boarding pass for my next leg a few times). At a minimum, at least tell them they don't have to use their little toy lights on the boarding passes. It's embarrassing for all of us when they clearly don't know that there's nothing hidden to see on a sheet of standard 8.5x11 paper. 4. Get rid of the liquids restriction. Taking people's water bottles away does nothing to enhance security, and folks consuming time/resources for this activity could either be used elsewhere or just plain eliminated altogether. 5. Get rid of the TSA guy who sits on the airside-to-landside exit at airports. Half of the time these guys have their eyes closed or are playing with their radios or cell phones anyway. These people could be effectively and affordably replaced with alarmed one way glass partition doors. |
Originally Posted by clrankin
(Post 11581401)
If they stopped focusing on the pretend part of their mission, TSA might find that they could actually provide an acceptable level of airside security. They need to get back to basics:
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