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-   -   Border Bullies (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/906463-border-bullies.html)

ralfp Jan 7, 2009 8:00 am


Originally Posted by Always Flyin (Post 11026228)
Your statement of the law as it relates to a border crossing is 100% wrong. Customs has the right to inspect anything being brought into or being taken out of the United States.

Since when does a person carry their email account across the border?

If a lawyer crosses the border, can he/she be forced to reveal the password to the law firm's server to give the customs inspector access to legal files?

bocastephen Jan 7, 2009 8:05 am


Originally Posted by Always Flyin (Post 11026228)
Your statement of the law as it relates to a border crossing is 100% wrong. Customs has the right to inspect anything being brought into or being taken out of the United States.

Not so fast - Customs has the right to inspect anything being brought into the US, but they do not have the right to read private correspondence of a US citizen who is not presenting themselves for entry into the US. In fact, hopefully the Feingold initiative will pass into law and prevent Customs from these types of random infiltrations into people's privacy.

catocony Jan 7, 2009 9:04 am


Originally Posted by yyzvoyageur (Post 11025233)
That's pretty bad advice, unless you really are coming to see your brother. The last thing a foreign national would want to do is get caught up in his own web of lies with an Immigration officer. It's asking for trouble.

That's assuming you're coming to see family. I would be partially cautious about that, since they may think that if you have family here, you may stay illegally - this depends on where you're coming from.

Main point is, people should never say more than they have to, and should never say they're coming here to see a girlfriend/boyfriend or a fiance. That's a big red flag for CBP. It shouldn't be, but it is.

ralfp Jan 7, 2009 9:16 am


Originally Posted by catocony (Post 11027921)
That's assuming you're coming to see family. I would be partially cautious about that, since they may think that if you have family here, you may stay illegally - this depends on where you're coming from.

The US gov't (State Dept. et al.) is pretty insane when it comes to this kind of thing. As an example, they will refuse someone a tourist visa to visit family in the US (as the person might stay with the family), even though the family is in a position to sponsor the person for a green card.

gglave Jan 7, 2009 9:37 am


Originally Posted by catocony (Post 11027921)
That's assuming you're coming to see family. I would be partially cautious about that, since they may think that if you have family here, you may stay illegally - this depends on where you're coming from.

Again, and from a Canadian perspective, this is caught when the VISA is issued, not by some random officer at the airport. The VISA officer should address these issues. Otherwise, what's the point of the visa?

Taker Park Jan 7, 2009 10:19 am


Originally Posted by gglave (Post 11028167)
Again, and from a Canadian perspective, this is caught when the VISA is issued, not by some random officer at the airport. The VISA officer should address these issues. Otherwise, what's the point of the visa?

Because the DoS isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

EasternTraveler Jan 7, 2009 10:35 am

The officer was not reading the emails of a US citizen, he was reading the emails of a Thai citizen attempting to enter the US under suspicious circumstances. The fact a US citizen may have sent emails to her or received emails from her is not a violation of their rights. If you don't want anyone to ever read your communications, do not send them. The government can and does read your posts, emails, and listen to your phone calls.

I really find it suspect and doubt this story as written.

whirledtraveler Jan 7, 2009 11:06 am


Originally Posted by EasternTraveler (Post 11028639)
The government can and does read your posts, emails, and listen to your phone calls.

..in violation of the law.

carolinaflyr Jan 7, 2009 12:20 pm

For a single woman coming from Southeast Asia the third degree is unfortunately the norm. Even a SE Asian woman married for years to a US citizen (which describes my sister in law) comes in for attention - all because there is a perception that they "might" be coming for the sex business, or they "might" overstay. The thought is that insulting and harassing a thousand visitors is better than letting one hooker into the USA.

Especially since 9/11 the focus is on keeping people out. As long as no CBP person is at any risk of losing their job for being rude, intrusive and abusive, some number of them (fortunately it seems to be a minority) will be exactly that. Most just do their job but some ought not be in contact with the public, or perhaps, anyone.

I see no reason to doubt any of the post- it is an old story and unfortunately, one likely to be repeated until and unless CBP's management sends a different message as to what behavior and judgments are and are not acceptable. I have myself come in for extended "questioning" at DFW when returning from Southeast Asia. One of the questions was "Why would you go to Cambodia?" That question says at lot about who works for CBP.

Bad apples + bad management = bad service.

yyzvoyageur Jan 7, 2009 1:09 pm


Originally Posted by carolinaflyr (Post 11029404)
I see no reason to doubt any of the post

I think it's the fluff and the unnecessary drama of the story that make it unbelievable to some: "She was brought into a small room where she saw a camera peering down. The officer conducting the shakedown...." Ooooh!

Deeg Jan 7, 2009 1:47 pm


Originally Posted by bocastephen (Post 11027504)
Not so fast - Customs has the right to inspect anything being brought into the US, but they do not have the right to read private correspondence of a US citizen who is not presenting themselves for entry into the US. In fact, hopefully the Feingold initiative will pass into law and prevent Customs from these types of random infiltrations into people's privacy.

Your legal analysis is way off here.

The US citizen suffers from a significantly reduced expectation of privacy when the e-mail is sent to another person. The case law (don't ask me for references since I'm going from memory here) suggests that the sender accepts the risk that the recipient will share that e-mail with other people. Therefore, the expectation of privacy is reduced.

If we change the facts slightly...suppose I am investigating you for some federal crime. Perhaps I believe you have sent letters to a friend in which you confess to said crime. Should I not have the right to go and ask your friend for the letters? Of course. And, should I have probable cause, I could even obtain a search warrant and get them without your friend's consent.

It is the same situation as making consensually monitored phone calls. If the CBP officers had asked the Thai woman to call the US citizen and allow the call to be recorded (without the US citizen's knowledge or consent) it would have been perfectly legal, without any court order. The reasoning is the same: when having a phone conversation, you take the risk that the other party is sharing the conversation with others. If that other party chooses to share the conversation with the government, you have no recourse.

As to coercing the e-mail password, it doesn't bother me much. The way our immigration law is written, the burden of proof is upon an alien seeking admission to prove that they are admissible to the country. The alien was given the option of providing access to e-mail in order to meet that burden. And it was successful. She could have refused, but then would have been unable to meet the required burden of proof.

ralfp Jan 7, 2009 2:32 pm

What if a CBP officer "asks" for the key or password to your home (say it's a keypad entry), and then calls the local cops and asks them to search the home. Would this be any more or less legal than the email thing?

Why would searching a home on US soil be any different than searching a server on US soil?


Originally Posted by Deeg (Post 11030065)
It is the same situation as making consensually monitored phone calls. If the CBP officers had asked the Thai woman to call the US citizen and allow the call to be recorded (without the US citizen's knowledge or consent) it would have been perfectly legal, without any court order. The reasoning is the same: when having a phone conversation, you take the risk that the other party is sharing the conversation with others. If that other party chooses to share the conversation with the government, you have no recourse.

What about the fact that certain states make it illegal to record a call without informing both parties? Do such laws not apply to CBP officers?

whirledtraveler Jan 7, 2009 2:51 pm


Originally Posted by Deeg (Post 11030065)
It is the same situation as making consensually monitored phone calls. If the CBP officers had asked the Thai woman to call the US citizen and allow the call to be recorded (without the US citizen's knowledge or consent) it would have been perfectly legal, without any court order. The reasoning is the same: when having a phone conversation, you take the risk that the other party is sharing the conversation with others. If that other party chooses to share the conversation with the government, you have no recourse.

You are forgetting wiretap law.

Deeg Jan 7, 2009 3:25 pm


Originally Posted by ralfp (Post 11030402)
What about the fact that certain states make it illegal to record a call without informing both parties? Do such laws not apply to CBP officers?

Correct. Such laws do not apply to federal law enforcement personnel.

Edited to add: state laws would apply to state law enforcement personnel attempting to do the same thing. In those states in which one-party consensual recordings are not allowed, state officers would have to obtain a court order while a federal officer would not.

Deeg Jan 7, 2009 3:31 pm


Originally Posted by whirledtraveler (Post 11030555)
You are forgetting wiretap law.

Not at all. It's a technique I (and my colleagues) use very frequently. I've used such recordings in plenty of criminal trials. Never had a suppression problem. And here's the reason...

The Federal Wiretap Act (commonly called "Title III") can be found in Title 18 of the U.S. Code. This is the federal law that makes wiretapping illegal. It has the following provision, found at 18 USC 2511(2)(c):


It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.


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