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Originally Posted by NY-FLA
(Post 9719094)
Really. So I take ~150 flights per year, pay the 9/11 security fee and various other taxes and charges on each and every flight, but I pay equally through my taxes? :confused:
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Originally Posted by ralfp
(Post 9718993)
Any real examples that don't involve aberrant or illegal behavior? It's one thing to deny access people based upon disruptive behavior; it's another to grant different levels of access to government services based upon commercial relationships.
How's this example: A busy SSA office in a mall with long lines going out the door onto mall property. What if the mall, instead of telling the SSA to resolve the situation, decided to give loyal mall customers the ability to use an "elite" line? Those people granted favor by the mall would use a short line, while others would have to wait for hours. Would this be acceptable? Some Passport offices have priority functions for expediters. Some venues use local police to run security, the sports team, et al, sets the priority by which guests arrive (sometimes it's a separate entrance). I really have no objection to such a program, especially where the people using the priority line have an obligation to have their affairs in order for a much faster process. That presumes that the folks using the priority line do, in fact, move quickly. |
Originally Posted by ralfp
(Post 9719154)
First, not in the US.
For the second, the logic escapes me. If you take all the supposedly slow people and put them on a separate line to the same checkpoint, you expect that line to move FASTER? |
Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
(Post 9719219)
It's often a part of the lease deal and gate charges for the airport. So, yes, in many cases the airlines pay.
Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
(Post 9719219)
That actually is the theory behind high-occupancy/toll (HOT) lanes on congested highways. Come to the DC area where some people get special privileges on the high-occupancy lanes (for example, Virginia allows hybrids to use the high-occupancy lanes even if they only have 1 person per car).
Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer
(Post 9719170)
Some DMV offices have priority lines or counters for car dealers. Some prioritize based on transaction type.
Some Passport offices have priority functions for expediters. Some venues use local police to run security, the sports team, et al, sets the priority by which guests arrive (sometimes it's a separate entrance). BTW: How would you answer my hypothetical situation? Just to be clear, I am not complaining out of bitterness. I can and do use elite lanes. Yes, I am a prudent hypocrite. I think the government stimulus check was wrong, but Mrs. ralfp & I still accepted it. |
Originally Posted by ralfp
(Post 9719132)
I believe that's incorrect, unless by "lease" you mean "uses without paying".
Seriously though, the length of a line for a service is part of the quality of that service. For what kind of service transaction would you say that the wait is not related to the quality of service? Since the lines and their length are inherently linked to the quality of service provided by the TSA, allowing private entities control over those lines allows those entities to control the quality of the TSA's service. It the end, wouldn't it be fairer to allocate "elite" access based on the number of TSA screenings a traveler has paid for in the past year? TSA + Quality of Service? Two funnies in one post, good job! :) Seriously, the quality of TSA service (or lack thereof) starts at the ID check - everything behind the ID check reflects on the airport, although it probably doesn't in the mind of the average flyer. I think it should be more clearly defined that the airport and its tenant airlines set the line policy leading to the ID check, and the TSA is responsible for everything from the ID check until the customer finishes their screening. |
Originally Posted by bocastephen
(Post 9719509)
TSA + Quality of Service? Two funnies in one post, good job! :) Seriously, the quality of TSA service (or lack thereof) starts at the ID check - everything behind the ID check reflects on the airport, although it probably doesn't in the mind of the average flyer.
The TSA should have control over the things that affect the quality of its service, especially since complaints about processing time (including the wait) are among the most frequent complaints about the TSA. If airlines have control over the lines, why do they not accept delays waiting for screening as a valid reason for being late to the gate? |
Originally Posted by ralfp
(Post 9719601)
If airlines have control over the lines, why do they not accept delays waiting for screening as a valid reason for being late to the gate?
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Originally Posted by DevilDog438
(Post 9718712)
The government is not providing prioritization to elite flyers. The airlines, who pay rental fees to the airport for the space prior to the TSO performing the TDC, have chosen to provide a priority line in THEIR rental space prior to the TSA checkpoint. That is their privilege, as it is THEIR rental property prior to the actual TDC checkstand. Once you have passed the TDC, you are in TSA-land and are subject to their decisions on which queue you end up in.
I also take GLOBAL_HI_FLYER's point that some DMV offices, for example, have separate lines for car dealers, etc. But the difference in all of these examples is that they are cases where there's a class of people with a different sort of business with that government office, who pay more than the rest of us TO THE GOVERNMENT to conduct that business. The key distinction is that in these cases, the person receiving preferred treatment from the goverment has paid more to the goverment for that, not to some private commercial entity. Oh, and BTW like ralfp I do use the elite lines, so I'm something of a hypocrite -- not trying to come off as preachy. |
Originally Posted by yad
(Post 9719659)
...We all pay $5 in tax (or whatever it is now, I forget) per screening -- there should be no preferential treatment in how we receive this government service. ....
I think the person paying $200 deserves faster access, and I believe that's fair, especially given the access is provided by the airline and the airport, and not the government agency doing the screening. |
Here's an idea that I think would appeal to "elite" fliers, the airlines, and my sense of ethics. Forbid the airlines from itemizing the security charge. Have them pay the TSA per screener, actual expenses, etc. on a monthly/yearly basis. Allow the airlines to [sort of] manage screener allocation to reduce line length; allow them to add screeners for elite lines, etc. There would be the issue of checkpoints shared among airlines, but I'm sure that could be resolved.
Originally Posted by bocastephen
(Post 9719694)
We all pay the same $5 tax, but we all don't pay the same amount of tax over the course of a year. A frequent flier might spend $200 in security fees, vs. a casual flier who pays $40 or less.
I think the person paying $200 deserves faster access, and I believe that's fair, especially given the access is provided by the airline and the airport, and not the government agency doing the screening. |
Originally Posted by bocastephen
(Post 9719694)
We all pay the same $5 tax, but we all don't pay the same amount of tax over the course of a year. A frequent flier might spend $200 in security fees, vs. a casual flier who pays $40 or less.
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My post to the blog thread about the article. Think they'll publish it?
There are a number of misconceptions in these comments. 1. TSA does not control the line. Entrance to the line is provided by private subcontractors who are paid by the airline (for example, UA uses AirServe). TSA assumes control at the point in which your ID and boarding pass are checked. 2. TSAs security is paid for by a tax on each airline ticket. A frequent flier who flies 100 times a year will pay 50 times more tax to support TSA than a casual flier who only flies twice. 3. Airlines reward their high-revenue passengers with a number of perks. A high revenue passenger is either one who has paid for a first class ticket, or one who flies an airline often. As the airlines need high revenue fliers to generate income (the margin on low-fare advance purchase tickets that are typical of those bought by casual fliers) can be only a couple of dollars). Without providing perks to those upon whom the airlines depend for their survival, there wouldn't be airlines at all. 4. Elite status fliers aren't royalty. They are, however, very experienced fliers and know exactly what can and cannot be brought through, have their shoes off and their laptops in the bin immediately, have removed all metal from their pockets, etc. The reason you don't see long lines at the "priority" screening is because we know how to move through quickly without holding up the process. Casual fliers have to deal with the security lines once or twice a year. We deal with the security once or twice a week, or more. Flying is as much a part of our routine as driving a car to most Americans. 5. The point everyone seems to miss is that the current implementation of security screening is a complete dog-and-pony show, put on to reassure the casual flier that it's really safe. The x-ray machine does not detect explosive, and the "hit" rate by TSA for IEDs and weapons is dismally low. Plastic baggies do not neutralize explosive liquids which, in any event, pose a completely de minimus risk to aviation. What casual fliers don't know, however, is that uninspected cargo and U.S. mail is loaded aboard every single commercial aircraft in the United States. What casual fliers also don't know is that the most dangerous terrorists in the world are not on the no-fly list. The government doesn't include them for security reasons. Accordingly, all this ID checking and no-fly nonsense does nothing to keep the most dangerous people off of American planes. This isn't a secret -- potential terrorists are just as aware of this as frequent fliers. So, why the dog-and-pony show? It is for YOU, Mr. and Mrs. Casual Flier, so that you'll continue to fill the airline's seats. We frequent fliers know that, statistically, flying is very safe and the odds of being a terrorist's target are very, very small. We have to go through this sham, however, because YOU, Mr. and Mrs. Casual Flier, think that pointless hassle translates into security. It does not. It remains pointless hassle. Even TSA recognizes this, and has begun to implement "experienced flier," "casual flier," and "family" lanes. So, please stop griping about how elitist the priority lines are. You do not pay for them, you do not pay a fraction of the security tax that frequent fliers pay, and the only reason we have to endure this nonsense is because of your lack of understanding of the air transport system. I'm not suggesting we don't need passenger screening in the interest of security. We certainly don't, however, need the system that's been implemented. Go ahead -- ask the TSOs who blog here and see if they disagree. |
Originally Posted by DevilDog438
(Post 9719618)
They do not have control of the complete screening process. They only control the lines prior to the TDC. Once past the TDC, you are in TSA-land. The airlines do not control the inner workings of the lines, staffing or processing between the TDC and the end of the Security C/P.
However, the TSA does enforce elite lines: By preventing crossover between the lines after or at the TSA ID check (at the point of transition from airline to TSA line control), the TSA is enforcing the elite lines. If the TSA allowed access to the end of any line in their purview for any passenger (elite or not) then they could plausibly deny control over elite lines. |
Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 9719870)
So, why the dog-and-pony show? It is for YOU, Mr. and Mrs. Casual Flier, so that you'll continue to fill the airline's seats. We frequent fliers know that, statistically, flying is very safe and the odds of being a terrorist's target are very, very small. We have to go through this sham, however, because YOU, Mr. and Mrs. Casual Flier, think that pointless hassle translates into security. It does not. It remains pointless hassle.
Even TSA recognizes this, and has begun to implement "experienced flier," "casual flier," and "family" lanes. So, please stop griping about how elitist the priority lines are. You do not pay for them, you do not pay a fraction of the security tax that frequent fliers pay, and the only reason we have to endure this nonsense is because of your lack of understanding of the air transport system. |
Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 9719870)
My post to the blog thread about the article. Think they'll publish it?
... This isn't a secret -- potential terrorists are just as aware of this as frequent fliers. So, why the dog-and-pony show? It is for YOU, Mr. and Mrs. Casual Flier, so that you'll continue to fill the airline's seats. We frequent fliers know that, statistically, flying is very safe and the odds of being a terrorist's target are very, very small. We have to go through this sham, however, because YOU, Mr. and Mrs. Casual Flier, think that pointless hassle translates into security. It does not. It remains pointless hassle. ... So, please stop griping about how elitist the priority lines are. You do not pay for them, you do not pay a fraction of the security tax that frequent fliers pay, and the only reason we have to endure this nonsense is because of your lack of understanding of the air transport system.
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