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-   -   Is a child allowed in the cockpit while the plane is in flight? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/807984-child-allowed-cockpit-while-plane-flight.html)

birdstrike Apr 3, 2008 10:48 pm


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516715)
Yeah yeah, crossing the street, driving a car, visiting a hospital, yadda, yadda, yadda, are all riskier than flying in a plane with a cockpit infested with snot nosed kids. Riskier than flying without a seat belt. Riskier than letting pax sit in jump seats. Riskier than letting cripples sit in exit rows. Etc.

I think you are beginning to get it.


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516715)
In my life I tend to look for the unnecessary risks and avoid them. That legal left turn out of the parking lot into a 6 lane road. Forget that ... I'll turn right and do the U-turn. Or find another exit from the lot that entails a left turn through fewer lanes. I want to live.

But you refuse to actually analyze risk but rely on emotion to evaluate it? That, my friend, is not the way to a long life.


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516715)
I especially try to avoid doing unnecessary things that put others at risk at no benefit to them and only benefit to me. Taking your kid into a commercial aircraft's cockpit is unnecessary, selfish, and puts me at risk.

If you won't realistically evaluate your own behaviors, I'm sure not going to let you dictate mine.

birdstrike Apr 3, 2008 10:53 pm


Originally Posted by gofast (Post 9516725)
I have spoken with literally several hundred commercial pilots and hundreds of other civil aviation professionals in the past few years and without exception they all agree that a closed and secure cockpit door is the single most important element in securing the flight deck.

That may be true. It says nothing about it being necessary today.

birdstrike Apr 3, 2008 10:55 pm


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516749)
More succinctly, he's selfish.

How so? I'm a pilot. I do not have kids. :D

mre5765 Apr 3, 2008 10:56 pm


Originally Posted by law dawg (Post 9515904)
I've been on some flights with some kids I'd have gladly sacrificed.....er, I mean, granted.......to such a program.

;)

Now you're talking!

birdstrike Apr 3, 2008 11:01 pm


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516744)
You are comparing Israel to Britain? And you call me stupid?

Where did I compare Israel to Britain? :D I did contrast them both to the US.

I may question your grasp of probability, but I don't call you stupid.


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516744)
How about what terrorists have managed to accomplish in Iraq?

Are you comparing Iraq to the US? :D


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516744)
You allude to the comparative safety of air travel over automobiles, and dis a measure that will help prevent the door from flying open in a crash?

Where did I do that? :D I , myself, lock my car doors.

mre5765 Apr 3, 2008 11:01 pm


More succinctly, he's selfish.

Originally Posted by birdstrike (Post 9516776)
How so? I'm a pilot. I do not have kids. :D

If you're commercial pilot who lets snot snoses into your cockpit because it makes you feel good (either to pin some plastic wings on the tykes, or because it's your way of sticking to the man) then you are as selfish as that idiot Kudrinsky.

If you are talking about how you conduct yourself and your flights on non-commercial private aviation, do whatever makes you feel happy.

birdstrike Apr 3, 2008 11:04 pm


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516797)
More succinctly, he's selfish.

If you're commercial pilot who lets snot snoses into your cockpit because it makes you feel good (either to pin some plastic wings on the tykes, or because it's your way of sticking to the man) then you are as selfish as that idiot Kudrinsky.

If you are talking about how you conduct yourself and your flights on non-commercial private aviation, do whatever makes you feel happy.

I'm a private pilot and onetime volunteer Air Explorer leader. I'll let your statements stand here as witness to your arguments.

Bedtime for me. :D

mre5765 Apr 3, 2008 11:27 pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by mre5765 View Post

Yeah yeah, crossing the street, driving a car, visiting a hospital, yadda, yadda, yadda, are all riskier than flying in a plane with a cockpit infested with snot nosed kids. Riskier than flying without a seat belt. Riskier than letting pax sit in jump seats. Riskier than letting cripples sit in exit rows. Etc.
I think you are beginning to get it.
I'm getting your illogic. Which can be explained by this example. Wearing the seat belt on a plane is mostly likely not going to extend my life versus not, whereas, if give up flying, and drive car 100K additional miles/year instead, there is a significant chance my life will end before my life expectancy. Therefore, I should not bother to wear the seat belt on the plane, and instead, stick it to the man who has a rule requiring me to wear the seat belt. Even though that seat belt might provide nominal protection in some crashes or hard landings, not to mention turbulence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mre5765 View Post
In my life I tend to look for the unnecessary risks and avoid them. That legal left turn out of the parking lot into a 6 lane road. Forget that ... I'll turn right and do the U-turn. Or find another exit from the lot that entails a left turn through fewer lanes. I want to live.

But you refuse to actually analyze risk but rely on emotion to evaluate it? That, my friend, is not the way to a long life.

Ridiculous libel. A 6 lane route with 10X the traffic as the 2 lane road is the riskier one to turn into. I chose to exit onto the 2 lane road (making a right turn, which is safer than a left), and then turn left at controller intersection with a left turn arrow onto the 6 lane road. I spend less time and distance on the 6 lane road too. That's risk analysis. Reason says my path to the 6 lane road is safer. The only emotion that enters into it is that I do not enjoy making left turns across 3 lanes of traffic into more busy traffic. Now if some people enjoyed that sort of thing, then one could make the argument that the tradeoff of the enjoyment for the risk is worth it.

There's no debate that I will live longer avoiding dangerous left turns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mre5765 View Post
I especially try to avoid doing unnecessary things that put others at risk at no benefit to them and only benefit to me. Taking your kid into a commercial aircraft's cockpit is unnecessary, selfish, and puts me at risk.
If you won't realistically evaluate your own behaviors, I'm sure not going to let you dictate mine.
I've debunked your accusation that I don't evaluate my own behaviors. But whether I engage in behavior that puts me at risk or not, that does not give you the right to engage in behaviors that put me at risk. As for whether you are going to let me or not, the reality is that I dictate them by funding candidates who pass laws that will strip you of your liberty if you continue your behaviors. You've no choice; I've won. Your funding of the anarchist party hasn't gotten you anywhere yet, nor is it likely to in the future.

birdstrike Apr 3, 2008 11:45 pm


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516880)
As for whether you are going to let me or not, the reality is that I dictate them by funding candidates who pass laws that will strip you of your liberty if you continue your behaviors. You've no choice; I've won. Your funding of the anarchist party hasn't gotten you anywhere yet, nor is it likely to in the future.

Quoted for posterity.

mre5765 Apr 3, 2008 11:53 pm


Originally Posted by birdstrike (Post 9516796)
I may question your grasp of probability, but I don't call you stupid.

If someone doesn't grasp probability does that make him a genius then? Of course you are calling me and everyone else who disagrees with you stupid.

Are you comparing Iraq to the US? :D
Iraq was as stable a society as the US was. It is unstable because while the bulk of the population does not engage in the blood bath, a significant portion of it supports the minority that is destabilizing the country.

This forum in FT is composed of a majority that sees no need to even slightly impede those who would takeover cockpits if it infringes on the rights of those who would not. Indeed, some contributors to this forum have made the argument they would have allowed the 9/11 hijackers, despite their backgrounds, to board the planes.

So if the rough consensus on this forum were to become the philosophy of a significant minority of the US, which has many immigrants who sympathize with the 9/11 hijackers, and still allows many immigrants who generally think ill of the US, and then tend to vote for candidates who think like most people in this forum, then yes indeed I can imagine a comparison being made to Iraq. Or at least Lebanon. The former majority of Lebanon never saw it coming, and they were vastly more worldly than the average American.


I , myself, lock my car doors.
Why? Doesn't that make you a numerical illiterate? It certainly makes you a hypocrite.

mre5765 Apr 3, 2008 11:55 pm


Originally Posted by birdstrike (Post 9516938)
Quoted for posterity.

Excellent job of quoting out of context. You are very skilled.

viking407rob Apr 4, 2008 1:40 am


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516669)
Right because there's absolutely no way terrorists could completely destabilize a society.


Nor do they need to. The current administration is doing a stellar job of that on it's own. :D

stupidhead Apr 4, 2008 1:45 am

I'd rather the kids be interested in commercial aviation than, say, drugs or car theft. Kids in the flight deck don't concern me, as long as they're supervised by an alert, not-drunk, and sane captain (i.e. won't let the kid sit in the copilot's chair) and the kids don't touch flight controls. There are usually two pilots up there (captain and first officer) and sometimes 3 or 4, and the plane's running on autopilot once it reaches cruising altitude until the descent for landing. Frankly, other than the 1/100 million chance that a terrorist is on board ready to hijack the plane, a cockpit door that opens and closes once or twice isn't really a matter of grave concern.

viking407rob Apr 4, 2008 1:53 am


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516744)
No, thank you. It is always illuminating to deal with people who insist on sharing their risks with me.


I'm confused now. My first impression was thinking that statement reaked of arrogance and grandiosity, but now I can see it was ME who was in the wrong. I'll be sure to do whatever is necessary to make sure you feel as "safe" as possible, should we ever be on the same flight and cabin. The rest of you should follow suit and make sure to cater to the paranoid and delusional fears of a small percentage of the frequent flier community. May I suggest some anti-anxiety meds? I've known a few people with similar issues and medication worked wonders.

Just to be blunt: If you're so scared and/or offended by the behavior of others then don't fly. The real selfishness is expecting others around you to change their behaviors for YOUR comfort. Sheesh, I'd hate to be your neighbor. You sound like the type who would call the cops every time someone has company or the stereo is barely audible.

birdstrike Apr 4, 2008 8:40 am


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516954)
If someone doesn't grasp probability does that make him a genius then? Of course you are calling me and everyone else who disagrees with you stupid.

No, it just means they do not grasp probability or the concept of evaluating risk. I'm sure you are quite good at your day job. I wouldn't call anyone stupid, that would be a TOS violation.


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516954)
Iraq was as stable a society as the US was. It is unstable because while the bulk of the population does not engage in the blood bath, a significant portion of it supports the minority that is destabilizing the country.

Iraq was an artificial collection of tiny fiefdoms held together by one dictator. It was unwise to remove him.


Originally Posted by mre5765 (Post 9516954)
Why? Doesn't that make you a numerical illiterate? It certainly makes you a hypocrite.

Because I sometimes drive through very bad parts of the city where carjackings actually happen. :confused:

I see no point in continuing to participate in this thread. Anyone who reads through it will easily discern the merits in both our arguments, so a very good day to you.


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