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Court Says Travelers Can't Avoid Airport Searches

Court Says Travelers Can't Avoid Airport Searches

Old Aug 23, 07, 9:37 am
  #76  
 
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Originally Posted by bocastephen View Post
I see. So the rule of law and the Constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure should be set aside because of the drug problem. Interesting. Wasn't that the mantra during the Clinton years when Herr Reno goose-stepped her way across the Constitution? I think you're a few years late with that bogeyman argument - today, we justify our Constitutional abuses by our fear of terrorists.

The court's own reasoning for this ruling was as flawed as the ruling itself. The whole lot of them should be booted from the bench.
If you feel that it was such an injustice then gather up your buddies here and do something about it. Oh wait a minute, you've tried that before. What happened? Zero, nadda, nothing. You guys don't have what it takes to stand up and be heard. You make fun of the sheeple but your no better. All talk. Call Amy, maybe she might sympathize with you and your story may be on NPR @ 0300 some morning.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 9:58 am
  #77  
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Originally Posted by tsadude1 View Post
These responses to this ruling are so bizarre it unbelievable. Most of you would rather have some crack head on the plane only because the TSA found his stash during what you percieve to be an illegal search even though the most far left liberal court said it was a good bust. Where are your minds?
On the Constitution. By the way, the 9th circuit isn't a "far left liberal court."

Your telling me that you'd rather have this doped up individual sitting beside you or even your family?
If it means not suspending the Constitution, yes, just as I'd rather have a murder acquitted because the evidence against him was obtained illegally and in violation of Constitution limits on government power.

How would you react if this crack head decided to do some hits in the lav and your plane was immediately landed to remove him, I guess THAT would be WRONGPeople smoking this crap are not in their right mind but hey, they got rights.
I would applaud the police as they came on to arrest the law breaker.

Sounds like a somebody listens to Amy Goodman way too much.
I don't know who Amy Goodman is. Sounds like someone skipped high school civics.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 10:08 am
  #78  
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Originally Posted by tsadude1 View Post
If you feel that it was such an injustice then gather up your buddies here and do something about it. Oh wait a minute, you've tried that before. What happened? Zero, nadda, nothing. You guys don't have what it takes to stand up and be heard. You make fun of the sheeple but your no better. All talk. Call Amy, maybe she might sympathize with you and your story may be on NPR @ 0300 some morning.
Charming. Nice post to build your credibility. For the record, you don't have a clue what any of us have been doing to 'stand up and be heard' or who we've been talking to. Rest assured I've had multiple documents before the House Sub-Committee on Aviation which lay out a clear path and justification for reducing the TSA to nothing more than an information liaison between DHS and the various transportation departments, while restoring security management to the FAA. I'm working quite hard to ensure your employer's days are numbered, and it won't come at a moment too soon.

Every day the TSA retains control of aviation security and their staff patrol our airports is another day we're at risk for disaster.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 10:09 am
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Originally Posted by tsadude1 View Post
These responses to this ruling are so bizarre it unbelievable. Most of you would rather have some crack head on the plane only because the TSA found his stash during what you percieve to be an illegal search even though the most far left liberal court said it was a good bust. Where are your minds? Your telling me that you'd rather have this doped up individual sitting beside you or even your family? How would you react if this crack head decided to do some hits in the lav and your plane was immediately landed to remove him, I guess THAT would be WRONGPeople smoking this crap are not in their right mind but hey, they got rights. Sounds like a somebody listens to Amy Goodman way too much.
Missed the point. Badly. Not surprising.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 10:41 am
  #80  
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Originally Posted by tsadude1 View Post
If you feel that it was such an injustice then gather up your buddies here and do something about it. Oh wait a minute, you've tried that before. What happened? Zero, nadda, nothing. You guys don't have what it takes to stand up and be heard. You make fun of the sheeple but your no better. All talk. Call Amy, maybe she might sympathize with you and your story may be on NPR @ 0300 some morning.
Thank you for being a poster child of what exactly is wrong with TSA.

You gonna be tougher when you get those coplike uniforms and a metal badge, tough guy?
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Old Aug 23, 07, 11:37 am
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Originally Posted by tsadude1 View Post
TSOs are not trained to identify drugs, none, nilch , nadda. If a TSO finds something that looks suspicious to them, then they report it and the LEOs make the determination as to what it is.
"Looks suspicious to them"? Talk about a vague standard. If I am paranoid, everything looks suspicious. Either you are trained to look for drugs and the mission creep that comes with that or you ignore the "suspicious" items if they are not prohibited.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 11:44 am
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I don't think TSADUDE1 is capable of defending himself from these attacks. He seems to lack the training and the schooling. But regardless, by bashing on him we are no better than he and his employer are.

We all agree that TSA sucks. He doesn't. We can either agree to dissagree (not likely) or bash on him some more (more likely)

That having been said...

@ Tsadude1

I don't know if you really don't get it or if you get it and stand true to your beliefs regardless of the many right/wrong issues here.
If you don't get it, then ask for a clear explanation. I'm sure all here will be able to provide you with various clear and concise arguments as to why an individual, be it a crackhead, a murderer, a rapist, a homeless, or even a TSO, has rights. it is THOSE VERY rights that are being stepped on with both feet and then spat upon afterwards. It's what separates a democratic state from a totalitarian one. Having been born and raised in a totalitarian one and having lived in a democratic one I have a bit of a unique perspective on the whole human rights issue. I don't need to go into details... but suffice it to say, if you've ever seen footage of those demonstrations in Eastern Europe back in 89-91, know that I have been in one too many of those.
But see, the root of the problem isn't really TSA taking away my water or lighter. It's whoever created TSA in the first place, right along with the Patriot Act. It's that absentee father figure we call a government, that says "I gave you the rights and I can also take them away" And we are supposed to sit here and take it? I DONT THINK SO!

So, next time you think about human rights, think about it from the victim's prospective. Put yourself in the shoes of that very crackhead. When all is said and done, what he was left with was TSA overstepping their boundaries. Again, I am not saying what he did is OK, but what TSA did was JUST AS WRONG! The outcome just doesn't matter anymore.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 12:04 pm
  #83  
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Originally Posted by DEVIS View Post
I don't know if you really don't get it or if you get it and stand true to your beliefs regardless of the many right/wrong issues here.
If you don't get it, then ask for a clear explanation. I'm sure all here will be able to provide you with various clear and concise arguments as to why an individual, be it a crackhead, a murderer, a rapist, a homeless, or even a TSO, has rights. it is THOSE VERY rights that are being stepped on with both feet and then spat upon afterwards. It's what separates a democratic state from a totalitarian one. Having been born and raised in a totalitarian one and having lived in a democratic one I have a bit of a unique perspective on the whole human rights issue. I don't need to go into details... but suffice it to say, if you've ever seen footage of those demonstrations in Eastern Europe back in 89-91, know that I have been in one too many of those.
But see, the root of the problem isn't really TSA taking away my water or lighter. It's whoever created TSA in the first place, right along with the Patriot Act. It's that absentee father figure we call a government, that says "I gave you the rights and I can also take them away" And we are supposed to sit here and take it? I DONT THINK SO!

So, next time you think about human rights, think about it from the victim's prospective. Put yourself in the shoes of that very crackhead. When all is said and done, what he was left with was TSA overstepping their boundaries. Again, I am not saying what he did is OK, but what TSA did was JUST AS WRONG! The outcome just doesn't matter anymore.
Your post is reminiscent of another poster awhile back ... PoliceStateSurvivor. He lived under Russian communism before coming the US and brought up a lot of those same points. Haven't seen him around in ages though.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 12:07 pm
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Originally Posted by Superguy View Post
Your post is reminiscent of another poster awhile back ... PoliceStateSurvivor. He lived under Russian communism before coming the US and brought up a lot of those same points. Haven't seen him around in ages though.
Gotta say that it isnt easy... and that's what scares me about the US. It has become a place where you truly must watch what you say and do.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 12:09 pm
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Originally Posted by DEVIS View Post
I don't think TSADUDE1 is capable of defending himself from these attacks. He seems to lack the training and the schooling. But regardless, by bashing on him we are no better than he and his employer are.

We all agree that TSA sucks. He doesn't. We can either agree to dissagree (not likely) or bash on him some more (more likely)

That having been said...

@ Tsadude1

I don't know if you really don't get it or if you get it and stand true to your beliefs regardless of the many right/wrong issues here.
If you don't get it, then ask for a clear explanation. I'm sure all here will be able to provide you with various clear and concise arguments as to why an individual, be it a crackhead, a murderer, a rapist, a homeless, or even a TSO, has rights. it is THOSE VERY rights that are being stepped on with both feet and then spat upon afterwards. It's what separates a democratic state from a totalitarian one. Having been born and raised in a totalitarian one and having lived in a democratic one I have a bit of a unique perspective on the whole human rights issue. I don't need to go into details... but suffice it to say, if you've ever seen footage of those demonstrations in Eastern Europe back in 89-91, know that I have been in one too many of those.
But see, the root of the problem isn't really TSA taking away my water or lighter. It's whoever created TSA in the first place, right along with the Patriot Act. It's that absentee father figure we call a government, that says "I gave you the rights and I can also take them away" And we are supposed to sit here and take it? I DONT THINK SO!

So, next time you think about human rights, think about it from the victim's prospective. Put yourself in the shoes of that very crackhead. When all is said and done, what he was left with was TSA overstepping their boundaries. Again, I am not saying what he did is OK, but what TSA did was JUST AS WRONG! The outcome just doesn't matter anymore.
I really do understand the civics part and I defended that for 22 years. I have been to other parts of the world and I understand what you are saying about Eastern Europe. I lived on the economy in Deutschland for two years and was surprised at the laws there. All I'm saying is that if I see some suspected drugs or anything else suspicious, I'm reporting it. It wouldn't matter who I worked for, that's the person that I am and I'm not changing. Drugs are a huge problem and I for one am not looking the other way on this particular subject. Ask me how I feel about drunk drivers and I'll give you another ear (eye) full.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 12:10 pm
  #86  
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Originally Posted by DEVIS View Post
Gotta say that it isnt easy... and that's what scares me about the US. It has become a place where you truly must watch what you say and do.
Sad that you had to experience that, then come to American and enjoy the freedoms here only to regress to once you experienced. And without leaving the US tol.

Unfortunately, I don't think people will realize what happened until it's too late and much harder (and possibly bloodier) to fix.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 12:44 pm
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Originally Posted by tsadude1 View Post
I really do understand the civics part and I defended that for 22 years. I have been to other parts of the world and I understand what you are saying about Eastern Europe. I lived on the economy in Deutschland for two years and was surprised at the laws there. All I'm saying is that if I see some suspected drugs or anything else suspicious, I'm reporting it. It wouldn't matter who I worked for, that's the person that I am and I'm not changing. Drugs are a huge problem and I for one am not looking the other way on this particular subject. Ask me how I feel about drunk drivers and I'll give you another ear (eye) full.
While I applaude your dedication towards civic safety, and I do think all drunk drivers along with the druggies should be lined up against the wall and shot, still that doesn't justify the actions.
When you wear an uniform, be it an Admiral's uniform or a janitor's uniform, you assume the role and the responsabilities that come with that uniform. The most important role of any uniform is to act as the uniform dictates. I don't expect the Comcast guy to unclog my toilet, nor do I expect my attorney to help me with my toothache. TSA was put in place to detect and prevent terrorist acts and materials, and last I checked drugs weren't among those. That's why we all are saying that you should stick to what you are asked to do. Separating business from personal is not easy, but I've learned to do it despite my own reservations on the matter.

Originally Posted by Superguy View Post
Sad that you had to experience that, then come to American and enjoy the freedoms here only to regress to once you experienced. And without leaving the US tol.

Unfortunately, I don't think people will realize what happened until it's too late and much harder (and possibly bloodier) to fix.
I tell you... this whole Bush thing... anyway... but I am not a huge fan of the Democratic clan either. Oh that Carlin puts it so amazingly well: "This is the best we can do folks. Garbage in garbage out"

The question remains... how do we protect ourselves? It's clear our government cannot help us. I think time has come when the US must truly rethink ALL of its foreign policies. Gung ho attitides just don't do it anymore, and we discovered that even the little guys have teeth just as big (if not bigger) as ours.
But what? Well, gotta have to go back to Carlin again: "For once in your life do the decent thing; DONT GET INVOLVED!"
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Old Aug 23, 07, 12:49 pm
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Originally Posted by tsadude1 View Post
I really do understand the civics part and I defended that for 22 years. I have been to other parts of the world and I understand what you are saying about Eastern Europe. I lived on the economy in Deutschland for two years and was surprised at the laws there. All I'm saying is that if I see some suspected drugs or anything else suspicious, I'm reporting it. It wouldn't matter who I worked for, that's the person that I am and I'm not changing. Drugs are a huge problem and I for one am not looking the other way on this particular subject. Ask me how I feel about drunk drivers and I'll give you another ear (eye) full.
It's one thing to report something suspicious as a civilian. It's another altogether when it's in the context of a search done under color of authority. In the former case, you're acting as a citizen; in the latter you are acting as the state and are restricted in your powers by the Constitution.

If I ever suspect a TSO is engaging in a search of my person for things unrelated to security because the TSO is "suspicious", I will call over a supervisor (and, possibly, a LEO) and make a formal complaint. If I think the TSO is acting outside the scope of his authority, I'll press charges.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 1:40 pm
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Originally Posted by bocastephen View Post
I see. So the rule of law and the Constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure should be set aside because of the drug problem. Interesting. Wasn't that the mantra during the Clinton years when Herr Reno goose-stepped her way across the Constitution? I think you're a few years late with that bogeyman argument - today, we justify our Constitutional abuses by our fear of terrorists.
Exactly. We set aside our legal principles for the BogeyMan de Jour - currently = "terrorists."

Originally Posted by bocastephen View Post
The court's own reasoning for this ruling was as flawed as the ruling itself. The whole lot of them should be booted from the bench.
I agree.
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Old Aug 23, 07, 2:29 pm
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Don't forget that many 4th amendment issues boil down to expectation of privacy - your subjetive expectation of privacy, as well as if society is willing to recognize that expectation of privacy.

Generally, your expectation of privacy inside of your home is extremely high, and society (and our laws) recognize that. Often, your expectation of privacy in your backyard will be less than you have in your house.

In looking at the 4th amendment, a court should balance the governmental action in the search against your subjective expectation of privacy, and against society's degree of acceptance of that level of expectation.

People do often disagree on society's acceptance of levels of privacy in different settings, and people on this board obiviously have differing expectations of privacy at an airport security checkpoint.

It is not clear to me what legal duties, if any, a TSO is under to report crimes. However, my guess is that if in searching a bag for a possible weapon a TSO comes upon something that he/she suspects is contraband (such as a meth pipe), the TSO is probably going to notify a law enforcement officer.

I personally do not have much of an expectation of privacy as to my bags when I put them on the screening belt, but that is just me. In my view, if a screener opens a bag becuase they saw something on the x-ray screen that they couldn't rule out as a weapon, and in the process of trying to rule the object out they come upon contraband, it is going to be admissible. If the screener is searching a bag to go on a fishing expidition, that may be another story.
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