Originally Posted by doober
(Post 8150619)
I really liked this response by an anonymous poster (emphasis mine):
Almost as good as a national day of civil disobedience - actually, even better. |
Next installment:
BS: Let's talk about ID checks. I've called the no-fly list a list of people so dangerous they cannot be allowed to fly under any circumstance, yet so innocent we can't arrest them even under the Patriot Act. Except that's not even true; anyone, no matter how dangerous they are, can fly without an ID .or by using someone else's boarding pass. And the list itself is filled with people who shouldn't be on it -- dead people, people in jail, and so on -- and primarily catches innocents with similar names. Why are you bothering? KH: Because it works. We just completed a scrub of every name on the no-fly list and cut it in half -- essentially cleaning out people who were no longer an active terror threat. We do not publicize how often the no-fly system stops people you would not want on your flight. Several times a week would low-ball it. Your point about the no-ID and false boarding pass people is a great one. We are moving people who have tools and training to get at that problem. The bigger issue is that TSA is moving in the direction of security that picks up on behavior versus just keying on what we see in your bag. It really would be security theater if all we did was try to find possible weapons in that crunched fifteen seconds and fifteen feet after you anonymously walk through the magnetometer. We do a better job, with less aggravation of ordinary passengers, if we put people-based layers further ahead in the process -- behavior observation based on involuntary, observable muscle behavior, canine teams, document verification, etc. |
Originally Posted by the Idiot
We do not publicize how often the no-fly system stops people you would not want on your flight. Several times a week would low-ball it.
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Originally Posted by Kip
We do not publicize how often the no-fly system stops people you would not want on your flight. Several times a week would low-ball it.
Originally Posted by christep
(Post 8156163)
That I simply do not believe.
a) how many bad guys there are trying to fly (be afraid, be very afraid), and b) what a heckuva job the TSA is doing in catching them (but not having them arrested of course :rolleyes:) ? Kipspeak again :td: |
Wasn't it the Parliament of GB that said, upon requesting additional information from the U.S about information sharing, that 800,000,000 had been screened, individually, but only 11 had been identified as terrorists, and none of those caught or at least disallowed from traveling on airplanes? So much for the success of screening.
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Day 5 is up.
If you look towards the bottom, you'll see a link to a poster that was distributed on FT. :D |
Originally Posted by Wally Bird
(Post 8156860)
Neither do I, which is likely the reason it's not publicized. Wouldn't the TSA want the people to know
a) how many bad guys there are trying to fly (be afraid, be very afraid), and b) what a heckuva job the TSA is doing in catching them (but not having them arrested of course :rolleyes:) ? Kipspeak again :td: And how much pull do you think the airlines have at the Congressional level? Just remember DHS and TSA are not the only entities in play here. |
Originally Posted by law dawg
(Post 8168627)
I can't speak to the number of incidents, etc. but one thing I would point out is - is it in the airlines best interest to have such information in the media? Would this help or hurt them?
And how much pull do you think the airlines have at the Congressional level? Just remember DHS and TSA are not the only entities in play here. |
Reading Kippie's responses to Bruce's very well thought out and posed questions reinforces the fact that he is an idiot and a waste of life.
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Originally Posted by law dawg
(Post 8168627)
I can't speak to the number of incidents, etc. but one thing I would point out is - is it in the airlines best interest to have such information in the media? Would this help or hurt them?
"Look how much safer you are, thanks in large part to our cooperation in helping the feds screen passengers against the no-fly list!" The problem is, the "several a week being a low-ball" figure Kip spouted is either (1) an outright lie; or (2) a deliberate misrepresentation, meaning several a week are stopped, but are clearly not a real threat. As Bruce asked, why are these guys, if they're so dangerous, not being arrested or charged with anything? And ongoing investigation doesn't cut it as an explanation; we've been told previously that the most dangerous potential terrorists aren't even on the list, because we don't want to tip them off to the fact that we're watching them. The guys who are "legitimately" on the list but who aren't arrested are allowed to probe the system to see how they can get past it (by trying different variations of their names, getting fake IDs, etc.) |
Originally Posted by Kipster the Idiotic
I often read blog posts about how someone could just take all their three-ounce bottles -- or take bottles from others on the plane -- and combine them into a larger container to make a bomb. I can't get into the specifics, but our explosives research shows this is not a viable option.
Someone points out some of the idiocy of what Kip and his cronies have spouted, and his response is, "You're wrong, but I can't tell you WHY you are wrong. Just take my word for it!" I'd love to see what "explosives research" says you can't combine several smaller quantities of explosive into a larger container. Yeah, TATP may be too sensitive to pour between containers easily, but the commerical and military nitromethane-based binaries are not. |
Originally Posted by exerda
(Post 8169243)
I can't imagine it would actually hurt the airlines to have published the stats on real, honest-to-god "bad guys" who have been stopped from boarding planes via the asine no-fly list.
First, the cost-benefit analysis will be so weak that the public would revolt at it. Secondly, it would reveal the number of toddlers being stopped because of the no-fly list. And the TSA doesn't want any more bad PR. I know you said "airlines," but I'm sure they're bound under a gag order from DHS. |
Originally Posted by LessO2
(Post 8169487)
I know you said "airlines," but I'm sure they're bound under a gag order from DHS.
On a separate note, here's another point from the Kipster that really irks me:
Originally Posted by Duncester Kipster
We are getting at the fake boarding pass and ID issues with our proposal to Congress that would allow us to replace existing document checkers with more highly trained people with tools that would close those gaps. Without effective identity verification, watch lists don't do much, so this is a top priority.
Having highly trained TSOs performing the document checking function closes a security gap, adds another security layer, and pushes TSA's security program out in front of the checkpoint. No amount of training will stop fake BPs from getting through the checkpoint. All one needs is a computer and Photoshop, and you can have a BP which is entirely authentic to all amounts of training. You'd need a BP scanner at the checkpoint that reads the BP to even begin to make "validating" a BP a viable option. That would eliminate fake BPs, making it so that only real, valid BPs for that date whose name matches what is printed on them can get through. But does that even begin to buy you anything? No--you can buy a real, honest-to-god ticket under a fake name, so long as you have a fake ID to match it. So what does that mean? You'd have to restrict the types of ID used, and provide a way to validate THEM, too. Not a bar bouncer glance to see if it "looks" fake, but a real, systemic, and automated method for verifying that the ID is legit. Of course, the determined terrorist then simply gets a fake ID by providing a fake birth cert (or even a stolen legitimate one) and other fake documentation--most IDs require at most a utility bill or two, which can easily be done on a computer. Even a national ID system isn't going to stop real ID cards for fake identities. Kip is just an idiot, plain and simple. :td: |
Originally Posted by exerda
(Post 8169243)
I can't imagine it would actually hurt the airlines to have published the stats on real, honest-to-god "bad guys" who have been stopped from boarding planes via the asine no-fly list.
"They" are still out there looking to get us and flying probably isn't worth the risk. "Look how much safer you are, thanks in large part to our cooperation in helping the feds screen passengers against the no-fly list!" Just like publishing crime stats makes people think things are perhaps worse than they would have had they not heard anything. Ignorance is bliss. The problem is, the "several a week being a low-ball" figure Kip spouted is either (1) an outright lie; or (2) a deliberate misrepresentation, meaning several a week are stopped, but are clearly not a real threat. As Bruce asked, why are these guys, if they're so dangerous, not being arrested or charged with anything? |
Originally Posted by law dawg
(Post 8169706)
What is the perception of "bad guys" trying to get on the plane by Joe and Jane Citizen?
"They" are still out there looking to get us and flying probably isn't worth the risk. |
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