If the passengers/FAs regained control of those 4 flights on 9/11, could they land?
Feb 11, 2006, 11:58 am
#1
Suspended
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 84
If the passengers/FAs regained control of those 4 flights on 9/11, could they land?
I was wondering what would have happend on 9/11 if the passengers and flight attendants were able to regain control of those four UA & AA jets.
Assuming all the pilots had all been incapacitated by the terrorist .......s, could the passengers and the flight attendants continued to fly and land the planes?
Or could the air force have dropped pilots into these planes?
(yes, like in the movies, can't remember which movie... but I think Kurt Russell was in it)
Thanks!
Assuming all the pilots had all been incapacitated by the terrorist .......s, could the passengers and the flight attendants continued to fly and land the planes?
Or could the air force have dropped pilots into these planes?
(yes, like in the movies, can't remember which movie... but I think Kurt Russell was in it)
Thanks!
Feb 11, 2006, 12:21 pm
#2
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: CLT
Programs: Choice Hotels/FFOCUS
Posts: 7,256
We will never know the answer, but one thing for sure they would have had a better chance than they had.
I am not a pilot, but a licensed "aircraft dispatcher". It would've been a long shot at best.
I am not a pilot, but a licensed "aircraft dispatcher". It would've been a long shot at best.
Feb 11, 2006, 12:25 pm
#3
In memoriam
Join Date: May 2005
Location: DAL
Programs: SWA A list preferred and CP, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Hertz President's club
Posts: 9,803
Originally Posted by af250xxl
I was wondering what would have happend on 9/11 if the passengers and flight attendants were able to regain control of those four UA & AA jets.
Assuming all the pilots had all been incapacitated by the terrorist .......s, could the passengers and the flight attendants continued to fly and land the planes?
Or could the air force have dropped pilots into these planes?
(yes, like in the movies, can't remember which movie... but I think Kurt Russell was in it)
Thanks!
Assuming all the pilots had all been incapacitated by the terrorist .......s, could the passengers and the flight attendants continued to fly and land the planes?
Or could the air force have dropped pilots into these planes?
(yes, like in the movies, can't remember which movie... but I think Kurt Russell was in it)
Thanks!
Feb 11, 2006, 8:50 pm
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,788
The answer is yes, possibly. Todays full motion simulators have allowed a number of interested people, usually private or student pilots, to answer that question for themselves.
One description here
Personally I've never flown a heavy full-motion sim, but I have landed Shuttle from 100,000 ft. using the full-motion simulator at Ames Research. Of course the flight control computers and HUD were running or I would have been toast immediately.
Edit to say that Autoland is not an uncommon feature in long-haul commercial aircraft. I don't know what it would take to set that up, but once you turn it on the plane should fly down the glideslope and park on the runway all by itself.
One description here
Personally I've never flown a heavy full-motion sim, but I have landed Shuttle from 100,000 ft. using the full-motion simulator at Ames Research. Of course the flight control computers and HUD were running or I would have been toast immediately.
Edit to say that Autoland is not an uncommon feature in long-haul commercial aircraft. I don't know what it would take to set that up, but once you turn it on the plane should fly down the glideslope and park on the runway all by itself.
Last edited by birdstrike; Feb 11, 2006 at 8:54 pm
Feb 12, 2006, 11:59 am
#6
Formerly known as billinaz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Goodyear,AZ for now then FL Spacecoast
Programs: US Airways Dividend Miles, American AAdvantage, Avis Preferred, Budget Rapid Rez, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,145
Originally Posted by Wally Bird
If you mean a non-ATP-rated passenger, then the answer is no. Not a chance. And in-flight transfers are a complete Hollywood fabrication.
Why not? An ATP isnt that big a deal.
What about someone who has a CAMEL and is Instrument rated and a CFI ????
And before someone asks...
Commercial Airplane Pilot, Multi Engine Land
Feb 12, 2006, 12:27 pm
#7
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Pointy End
Posts: 3,565
Originally Posted by billinaz
Why not? An ATP isnt that big a deal.
What about someone who has a CAMEL and is Instrument rated and a CFI ????
And before someone asks...
Commercial Airplane Pilot, Multi Engine Land
What about someone who has a CAMEL and is Instrument rated and a CFI ????
And before someone asks...
Commercial Airplane Pilot, Multi Engine Land
Feb 12, 2006, 1:29 pm
#8
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: UA, SWA, HA, Qantas
Posts: 660
The Flight attendants are required to learn radio usage. So as long as someone on the airplane FA/or pax could make radio contact, and the aircraft was stable at that moment, they most likely could have been coached down, given the level of automation available as the previous posts suggested. Still alot of "ifs" but could be done most likely.
Plane out of control, or even just in an unusual attitude/weather/non visual conditions would have made it very difficult.
Plane out of control, or even just in an unusual attitude/weather/non visual conditions would have made it very difficult.
Feb 12, 2006, 4:14 pm
#9
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38,410
I would expect them to make it down.
The automation on board can deal with most of the details and the radio can get them directions as to what to tell the computers. Those were fueled for transcontinental flight--send them out west and land them one of the huge lakebed runways out there. That way you have more time for the one time critical task they must perform.
Stick an appropriate pilot in the backseat of an F-15 and have it fly along near the plane so the pilot can actually see what's going on when giving directions.
The automation on board can deal with most of the details and the radio can get them directions as to what to tell the computers. Those were fueled for transcontinental flight--send them out west and land them one of the huge lakebed runways out there. That way you have more time for the one time critical task they must perform.
Stick an appropriate pilot in the backseat of an F-15 and have it fly along near the plane so the pilot can actually see what's going on when giving directions.
Feb 12, 2006, 4:35 pm
#10
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
Cat III Landing
I thought a CAT III plane can almost land itself? Weather was good everywhere, these were top of the line planes from the best airlines in the world. Full fuel loads with lots of time to plan, etc.
Feb 12, 2006, 4:59 pm
#11
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of ORD
Programs: AA Plat UA Premier
Posts: 9,154
Originally Posted by sbrower
I thought a CAT III plane can almost land itself? Weather was good everywhere, these were top of the line planes from the best airlines in the world. Full fuel loads with lots of time to plan, etc.
Who are you going to believe? Airline workers or a real pilot. But I still have to assume that the automation can only help.
Feb 12, 2006, 5:49 pm
#12
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,788
Originally Posted by SirFlysALot
I thought the same thing an was told as much when I did work for an airline. But we were corrected by Larry J who is a commercial pilot. No plane can take off, fly to the destination and land itself. I was told back then that 757 - 767 were pilot optional planes.
Who are you going to believe? Airline workers or a real pilot. But I still have to assume that the automation can only help.
Who are you going to believe? Airline workers or a real pilot. But I still have to assume that the automation can only help.
The assertion being made in this thread is that a properly equipped aircraft can make an ILS IIIc approach and landing. That is zero ceiling and zero visibility. i.e. land by itself. This capability has existed since Concorde.
Frequent flyers may well have flown such an approach and landing during a normal flight when the system is being tested. I hear that the landing is describe as "firm".
Feb 12, 2006, 6:04 pm
#13
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: BA/AA/AS/B6/WN/ UA/HH/MR and more like 'em but most felicitously & importantly MUCCI
Posts: 19,719
747 pilots have told me that Microsoft Flight Simulator is actually more unforgiving than the real deal, and I have plenty of Flight Simulator hours as well as some real-world cockpit lessons, so I'd take a shot. I think I could do it.