goalie

i'm not going to give out flight info but i had a "situation" on a m/r where i was asked to remain behind after deplaning and was questioned by a fam. evidently my giving out of the tootsie pops didn't sit well with one of the f/a's as she thought i was asking too many questions as to "the number of folks working so i could give out my gift", etc-i didn't do anything different than on any other flight but i'm now concerned as to what might happen as a result. i had no problem talking with the fams, explained what i was doing, what a m/r was, why i gave out tootsie pops, gave them my i/d and told them that if someone wanted to contact me that would be fine as well. they said that probably won't be necessary although they would have to do a report.

so now i'm a bit concerned as to what might happen on future flights-ssss to ?????

any thoughts

bdschobel

Probably nothing will happen. These guys must file thousands of reports every day. (They have nothing else to do!) I don't expect that anybody even reads most of them.

But I wonder if you handled the situation in the best way. Whenever a law-enforcement officer detains you (being prevented from leaving the plane is prima facie detention), you should immediately ask, "Am I under arrest?" That question should be the first thing out of your mouth (well, maybe after identifying yourself). If the answer is no, then ask, "So am I free to go?" If the answer to that question is no, then repeat the first question. Repeat this cycle as many times as necessary until either (1) you are actually arrested (very, very unlikely without probable cause -- and then you can sue) or (2) you are told that you are free to go, which will happen eventually.

And if you are actually arrested, remember to say, "I would really love to answer your questions, but I can't do it until I have a lawyer present. Sorry."

Bruce

tazi

I must have missed something in another thread. Explain to me about the handing out of tootsie pops?

hiltonhead

Why should a person do this? Sounds as if the situation was handled perfectly to me. I really don't understand this attitude of being defiant just for the sake of doing it. Pushing everything to the limits, although perfectly legal, is quite childish. You sit here and tell everyone to "fight authority" as if it were some type of little game. Why in the world would someone go through all of the cycles when all they had to do was answer the question? You strike me as the type that prays for the day that you are illegally detained so that you can shout to the world that you were right all this time about the big, bad government. Talk about paranoia! It is a shame that when a cop has been called to the scene by a concerned citizen, he has to play "make me a martyr" with some people. Makes you wonder why anyone would ever go into law enforcement. I don't agree with giving gov't the power to include themsleves in our personal lives, but don't you think responding to the FAMS in a mature manner would be acceptable? The post says that the flight attendant mentioned it to the FAMS, and they responded. What were the supposed to do? Scamper away in fear of offending someone? They were told the truth and they dropped it. Good Job! This is how the system is supposed to work. Blowing snot bubbles everytime someone in gov't says good day to you is pointless. Believe it or not, I'm sure FAMS are people too. They were problably very glad to find out that the flight attendant's worries were unwarranted. Totally ridiculous!

Have a great day all!

bdschobel

No, I absolutely do not believe that FAMs should "scamper away in fear." By the same token, they should not bother people without probable cause. The fact that a flight attendant was concerned is not probable cause. You know that.

If I call the police and tell them that I'm suspicious about my neighbor, does that -- by itself -- give the police reason to start questioning my neighbor? I don't think so.

Bruce

VideoPaul

The guy who said to ask if you are under arrest and then ask if you are free to go was EXACTLY RIGHT! I spent time in police work, and there's a little GOTCHA that few people know...

When you are questioned before you are placed under arrest, you are giving information FREELY and VOLUNTARILY and ANYTHING you say can and will be used against you. Miranda rights do not attach, and you are not required to be advised of your rights, until such time as you are under arrest. SOOOOO many times guys in my department would use the "just asking questions" part of things to gather PROBABLE CAUSE to then arrest you. Then your miranda rights attach, but it's also too late, you have already freely and voluntarily given then the information they needed. You cannot take it back, your miranda rights were never violated, and you're stuck. Give your identification, which you are required to do, then LAWYER UP!! If you ask them if you are under arrest, they say no, we're just asking questions, tell them you have nothing to add to the discussion. If they press you, continue to ask of you are under arrest and if not are you free to go, and then ask for an attorney.

You may have a trip delayed, but preserving your rights is FAR more important.

To the poster asking why someone would be defiant: If you're not, you can get railroaded into problems beofre you have the first damn clue what happened. Friendly questioning turns into an arrest so fast after you open your mouth you'd need a videotape replay to figure out how you got hosed. And the police are PERFECTLY FREE to use deception to gain information, that has been upheld by the courts for decades. Until you are actually under arrest, they can feed you any cock and bull story that crosses their minds.

It's a game, it's a complicated game, and once you give your identification, you are free to demand an attorney before answering ANY questions. Until then, SHUT THE HELL UP. You can thank me later.

--Paul

tazi

I still can't figure out why giving away tootsie rolls gets you questioned by a FAM.

studentff

Were you detained long enough to miss (or risk missing) your next flight or otherwise alter your schedule, or was this a 2-minute thing?

Myself, I'd put up with about 2-5 minutes worth of "friendly conversation" before considering it harassment and being what hiltonhead seems to think is "defiant." 2-5 minutes is more than enough for the FAMs to do good police work and realize I'm not a threat; anything more is probably intimidation/harassment.

While it is doubtful anything will happen, I would seriously consider filing a Privacy Act Request with ICE (who runs the FAMs) demanding to know the contents of the report so that you may correct any misinformation. They will probably deny the request, but it gives you a starting point if you start getting frequently harassed by any part of the airport security infrastructure.

Edited to add:

You might also consider sending a note to UA, reminding them of your elite status, and expressing a concern that UA FAs are tending towards excessive paranoia that is disruptive to passengers. There was a SYD flight a while back that was diverted because an FA found a barf bag that had "BOB" written on it; (s)he thought "BOB" might mean "bomb on board." There was a ORD-DAY UA flight a while back diverted because a FA took too seriously a nosy-passenger's complaint that a Japanese businessman wrote the word "suicide bomb" on a private paper in his seat. (He did not brandish the paper; he later claimed he saw the word in a news article he was reading while in his seat and wrote it down because he was trying to improve his English vocabulary.) Within the last few weeks we had another UA flight diverted and evacuated and a number of innocent passengers' carry-ons damaged by a bomb squad because a FA overreacted to passenger reports that another passenger had "vials of liquid" (lotion) and "wires" (laptop accessories). And now you are turned over to an FAM for giving tootsie pops to a few FAs.

The rate of these "paranoia incidents" seems higher for UA than for other USA airlines, and I follow such news pretty closely.

hiltonhead

And as I'm sure you know, there is no law that denies the right of police to question someone. Interrogation is totally different. A cop can walk up and ask anyone, anything. Just as a private citizen can. That person also has the right to refuse conversation. My point was, why make a mole hill into a mountain. The FAMS asked a few innocent questions about the incident and went on their way. No harm, no foul. Your earlier post suggested defying authority just to prove a point. That point has been proven numerous times in the past. We all know that unless arrested you don't have to talk to the police. You also don't have to say good morning to your neighbor, say hello when answering your phone, or eat your vegetables. If your ever in an accident, refuse to tell the rescue squad your location..it's none of their business. Don't call the police if your home is being broken into..they have no right to be there. Use a phony address for your tax return..don't want the I.R.S. getting too cozy with us. The point is, how far do we take this before it just gets silly? If the questions are harmless and you have done nothing wrong, why not just answer and save everyone the grief? Not everyone can be a Rosa Parks, but if they insist on trying, I hope it's over a more important subject.

Have a great day all!

bdschobel

Well, now, that's not quite the true story, is it? The questions were hardly "innocent"; the FAMs were investigating, plain and simple. Then they took this person's information and wrote some sort of incident report. What happened to that report is unknown. "No harm, no foul" remains to be seen, right?

Smart people do not have unnecessary conversations with law-enforcement personnel. End of story. Do otherwise at your own risk.

Bruce

Wally Bird

I don't think it's just coincidence that UA and its cabin crews are in a continuing and escalating fight over pensions, and that more incidents seem to happen on UA flights. If I were a senior UA FA, I suppose I'd be in a pretty foul mood right now and 'eccentric' pax would be a convenient target.

GradGirl

The difference of opinion here between bdschobel and hiltonhead is a perfect example of why excessive government secrecy and government hysteria is harming the authorities' ability to gather information. Bruce has a perfect right to be suspicious when asked to give personal information that will be used to compile a secret incident report against him. If the process were transparent, we wouldn't have to worry about being caught in an endless Kafka-esque airport nightmare or worse after a short conversation with a FAM or screener. The feds are shooting themselves in the foot by harassing innocent people day in and day out. Who's going to give information to any branch of a scary secretive anti-terrorism operation that makes news daily for fining people hundreds of dollars for trying to carry a cheese slicer, or for detaining people and questioning people again and again who happen to be named David Nelson?

I know that I used to be the 100% cooperative-with-authority type, but after a few experiences of being touched in a truly disgusting manner by federal anti-terrorism employees, I have changed my mind about helping this modern-day KGB do its thing.

goalie

rather than try and do multiple quotes.....

to the question as to why the giving of tootsie pops "got me questioned"

as i have for almost 2 years, once i get seated, i tell an f/a that i have a small "thank you" gift for the flight crew but i need to know how many are working-to look at it from both sides, i can see how this might "invoke concern" but this was the first time in 2 years.

i also talk with the f/a's in flight about anything from sports to their current labor situation (where i also tell them, that i support them and not ua mgmnt) and that the toosie pops also "work well on "unruly children" to throw some humor into the coversation and again, this is the first time anything ever came of it.

now as to the "am i under arrest" post-yes i am well aware of that "out"-ex g/f is an sfpd officer and told me about that but that would have only been a last resort as the conversation with the fams was very professional (held right in the jetway with the f/a present) although i was the one who volunteered to show my i/d as they didn't ask for it at all. the whole interview with fams kept focusing on "why i asked so many questions" and "we live in a different time", etc

i was on my way home so there was no worry about missing a flight and the whole conversation was maybe 10 minutes tops but it did have me looking in my rear view mirror on the drive home.

thanks for all the advice and comments and i'm gonna let it ride and see what happens-especially since i have 2 same day m/r's on 5/14 & 5/21 and a trip to las over the memorial day w/e-i'll keep you updated.

channa

How did the FAM identify himself? Since they wear plain clothes, unless they flashed some sort of ID, how would you know this is a real FAM?

goalie

i was asked if i could stay behind after everyone got off the plane as "someone wanted to talk to me" and when they came forward, they did show their i/d and badges