jacksf

After reading all 9 or so pages, one question I didn't see discussed is the use of electronic lighters. Use no gas of any kind. Battery produces heating element instead.

Any thoughts?

frankc98376

Well, we're one week out from the due date and the prohibited items list on the TSA website is still from 12/18/03. Guess it's just going to be a surprise for all at the airport on the 15th.

Doppy

Vetoing wouldn't be feasible because our "leaders" are too busy telling us to be afraid of everything all the time. Had the bill been sent back to Congress to be fixed, some people might catch on that we don't have to hide under the bed and be terrified of everything all the time.

Then how would our "leaders" control and manipulate the population for their personal gain?

windwalker

Here's my thinking
Half of FTers go to ND, the other half to OR.
Everyone refuses to remove their shoes
and everyone must carry a lighter or matches.
Heck even book one way flights

My guess is we could pretty much shut down an airport or two for the day

Of course, it would be even better if we could some how find out when those 2 senators would be flying from their home airport. But it's my guess they don't even use common carriers. And why should\would they care if the "little people" whom employee them are inconvenienced.

It would be great to see their faces as they wait at the tail end of the the LSC-DO conga line, though.

Dovster

The bill did not need to be fixed. It needed to be trash canned.

There are elements of it much more dangerous than a Bic lighter could ever be.

This, in fact, was the reason that I finally decided to vote this year. I wasn't going to because of Bush's having signed the Patriot Act. When the 9/11 Commission's report came out and Kerry announced that implementing all of its recommendations would be his first priority, I decided to vote -- for Bush.

Bush did, admittedly, accept most of its provisions (as embodied in the Intelligence Bill) but at least did not go all the way with it.

p1cunnin

I'm not sure MSY-MSP ever explained this (or the exceptions) and I haven't seen anyone else question this statement.

After doing the TSA Macarena to ensure that I'm not packing anything metal, I'm not going to drop my wallet and used or unused handkerchiefs into the same bins that have held the bottoms of shoes -- and frankly, given the condition of my sinuses these days, no one is going to want to use that bin after my handkerchief has been in it. (Short pause while everyone goes ewwwww!)

More to the point, trying to keep track of my coat, laptop, laptop bag, boarding pass (at those airports that insist that you present it for the nth time), yadda yadda yadda, I just know I'll leave that stuff at the checkpoint.

Sooooooo.... does anyone know if this aspect of this insanity is going to perpetrated upon us?

studentff

There's no realistic way for TSA to force everyone to empty their pockets without either making them be turned inside out (which not all pockets will do) or patting down everyone. You can't visually identify the "bulge" from a BP or small lighter let alone a hankie.

I have no doubt that MSY-MSP told us exactly what he heard, and I have no doub that local TSA people are trying to make this stupid new rule look as bad as possible by proposing draconian measures. If they're dumb enough to actually implement any of these draconian meaures, the public/press hatred of TSA resulting from the hassle and increased lines will be fantastic, and it will hopefully be directed against both TSA and the two idiot senators.

5 more days to lighter-gate and still no word from TSA minister of disinformation Mark Hatfield as to what the policy is.

FWAAA

Agree.

Even simpler: A piece of copper wire connected to both ends of a battery.

Next to be banned: Batteries and wire.

MSY-MSP

Exactly. I have reported the proposed enforcement of the rules as I have heard them from the local people. I have a very good relationship with many of the TSA here. It comes from working with the brother of one of the Airport Police. We do a lot of pro-bono work for the Airport Authority and its employees. The one thing I know about the people at MSP, despite the rest of the TSA, these folks actually have their heads on and think about the security issue from a realistic point of view. No shoe carnival. Pat downs were/are done very professionally most of the time, supervisors with PhD's in physics, and stats.

Now for the opinion of the new rules from the locals. They think they are stupid, and apparantly a decent number of other sites think they are dumb. They don't want to enforce this rule, but are not given a choice. Therefore, they are looking at ways to get as bad of press out of this as possible, in hopes of getting the rules changed. There is going to be a lot of intial over the top procedures, beyond what is actually required just for the press value. In essense we have infighting within TSA at the FSD level over policies and procedures.

I haven't heard anything new from them lately, so I assume the last set of rules are going to be the rules. I have no idea how they are going to count matches, but I wouldn't put it past them.

p1cunnin

So I'm standing in the checkout line at my local Walgreen's. Like most stores, there are various impulse buy items on display (i.e. the kids will want one and we get an outrageous profit on everything we put here). So what do I see? The "Roll of Quarters" lighter. Here's a link to what they look like. If you look closely at one in person, it does say Quarter Lighter, but a quick glance at it looks like a roll of quarters. (Now what someone would be doing with a roll of quarters in their pocket on a normal day is a little beyond me, but I suppose into places like Vegas it's not uncommon.

So I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and get one of these, but it's clear that lighters come in many other forms than the trusty Bic -- which, if people are getting creative, means that just about anything coming out of your pocket is going to get run through the x-ray machine.

And that leads me back to thinking that "turning out pockets" is not far from reality if people really start messing with lighters and matches.

Can we fight the next war instead of worrying about the last one?

Cholula

Only problem I have with this is if TSA asks if you have any lighters and you say No and then they find this thing, doesn't it kinda look like you're trying to smuggle one through the checkpoint?
Maybe I'm being paranoid here.
Plus the roll of quarters, with no visible means of being held together, would kind of look strange enough in a secondary check for someone to want to take a closer look.

FWAAA

Paranoid? Not in my view. I think you may be onto something. A TSA employee at the checkpoint should ask each and every passenger if they are carrying any prohibited items.

Then, if the screeners find any prohibited items, the pax can be charged with whichever federal "lying to US government employee" statute is applicable. I'll bet that would show the passengers.

myrgirl

Unfortunately, there's a big flaw in your idea. That lighter is a torch lighter which has always been a prohibited item. It's also a hazmat item which means getting BP and DL information at the checkpoint. If one carries that through the mag in their pocket, it'll alarm, then they'll end up sending it through the xray anyway. When that's spotted on the xray, it'll be clear it's a torch lighter and not a roll of quarters. I say it's not worth the trouble. My suggestion: Carry matches until we find out the extent of the ban.

studentff

There's no point in getting even that creative when a standard bic will go through the WTMD just fine without alarming. Put it in the back pocket of your pants or another pocket that can't be turned inside out. Unless TSA starts pat full-body patdowns on all pax or jacks up the WTMD settings to super-high, which will effectively result in full-body patdowns of everyone, there is no way to enforce the lighter rule.

Best plan is for TSA to confiscate when they see it and ignore it otherwise, and to have a tacit rule that terminals do not get evacuated when lighters are discovered.

As pointed out by myrgirl, torch lighters are prohibited hazmat (and actually somewhat dangerous). And there's no point in risking a charge of artful concealment for carrying some fancy lighter. Or the replacement cost if the fancy lighter is confiscated. No way TSA is realistically going to arrest/fine every smoker with a bic in their pocket, but they may try to make examples out of the artful concealers.

Still waiting for Feb 15, but fortunately not planning to fly until Feb 20 . . .

TSASuper

Well, I have good news nd bad news with this. I received word that the lighter ban has been delayed until March 31st. The bad news is that the ban is still coming. I'm still curios as to how this is going to be enforced. The best bet I can think of is catch as many as you can, but we'll never get them all. I'm sure that the screeners are dreading this as much as the passengers are.