Lots of complaints, what about ideas... What are we willing to put up with to be safe?

Acceptable polices?

Shoes over 1/2" average sole?
Hand search of person if alarmed?

Not acceptable policies?

Forced shoe removal when clearly not close to 1/2" average sole
Hand searches when?

We know that if someone were to swallow explosives, we would probably never catch them. So what level are we willing to accept?

Reasonable seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Some of us say reasonable is check my boarding pass once (this is more for airline revenue protection than anything but whatever), I'll play along and take my laptop out of my briefcase, walk through the WTMD and if I don't set off the alarm with my shoes on then don't be grope'n where ya'h shouldn't be poke'n.

Then there are those (who seem to always be the ones interviewed on TV or in the print press) who are all "I'm for WHATEVER it takes if it means I'm safer." Well then...

This week bras.

Still reasonable?

Next...panties and briefs.

Still reasonable?

Then boxers and rectums (M and F).

Still reasonable?

Then vaginas (F) and urinary tracts (M and F).

Still reasonable?

Then enemas and the colon and lower intestine.

Still reasonable?

We can't be too careful. Think about the children. Bad people will stick explosives anywhere they can.

So reasonable....I just don't know these days what that means but we sure are past it in my book .

Yes I'm cranky because I want 1 more day off before I have to submit myself to the MCI scrutiny point tomorrow who are in full-foot-fetish mode. But then I'll be in DCA at the Grand Hyatt for the week so all will be well.

And for those who say I'm being unreasonable...who would have thunk just a year ago we would be having so many threads dealing with genital and breast manipulation of innocent citizens by our government today...times, they are a changing!

Oh, I forgot, everything changed on 9/11 including the applicability of our Constitution.

I don't mind showing ID and walking through a metal detector. If it goes off, wand me, fine.

I think it's unreasonable to make me take off shoes and walk across a dirty floor.

I think it's unreasonable to make me take off flip-flops so that you can wand my bare feet.

To me, reasonable is the intrusiveness v. effectiveness. I don't think the mangnometer is overly intrusive. I'd rather there be no guns in the cabins (air marshals included), so I don't really have a big problem with that.

But considering all the other things that could happen during a flight, most of which have been discussed here ad naseum (nerve gas, non-metal sharp things, unscreened cargo, unaccounted-for surface-to-air missles, etc.), I can't justify a great deal of intrusion, as if someone really wants to bring down an aircraft, I think it's quite possible for them to do so.

What do I want?

First I want the flying public to be informed of how TSA agents are trained to do searches and what is an acceptable search. All back of the hand? Can a breast be squeezed or cupped?

I want all agent to wear tags that clearly display their names, in letters large enough to be read by anyone who is not legally blind.

If they are going to insist that everyone remove their shoes, then help should be offered to the elderly and/or disabled. I witnessed a very elderly gentleman, traveling alone, being forced to remove his tie shoes in EWR and no one was allowed to help him.

I want the TSA to recognize that some people do not have range of motion in their limbs to raise them or hold them at the level that TSA seems to demand. I witnessed another incident, this with an older woman, who told the screener she could not raise her arm as high as he was demanding. I thought for an few moments that he was going to pull it up to a position that suited him until another agent intervened.

I want any screening of women to be done by other women and behind a screen, with a witness chosen by the person being searched if she as asks for a witness.

No removal of the final layer of clothing, no picking up of shirts to visualize a bra, no unzipping of pants and no gawking down the waistband of pants.

If minors are pull aside to be patted down, a parent must be able to be by the child's side. Unescorted minors must be given a chaperone who is not a TSA employee.

I want the TSA to admit that these searches can be humiliating and traumatizing to some individuals.

Above all, I want the TSA to admit that these searches are nothing but a waste of time. We've been there, done that with the shoe and bra thing (at least allegedly with the bra thing). The next bomb will be in a body cavity.

What do you think? Think you live in a democracy or something? None of those policies were set with public feedback. If there is law to support them, it is secret law. No, it's not our choice. The policies we have will be set by our betters, based upon what they think is right for us.

You're on dangerous ground, Comrade. Sounds like you need to report for reeducation...

I'm willing to go back to pre-9/11 searches. The new ones make us a whole lot less safe. I'm willing to let my bag be searched but they should have to have an LEO present to touch my body.

I am willing to put up with a lot IF they do it to everyone. It's blatantly counterproductive to harass some people more than others: the bad guys can game that system to guarantee themselves the minimal search possible (MIT carnival booth paper). Ergo, only innocent travelers will ever be subjected to super-screening. If TSA were grabbing the breasts of every female traveller through the checkpoint, then (A) the screaming would already have reached a pitch loud enough to make things change, and (B) they'd have to ask Congress for more money and more people to do it. Therefore, I assume that TSA would have to scale back to something reasonable if they were required to apply the same search methods to everyone.

Back of hand is only for sensitive areas. Breast cupping or squeezing is a no no.

That is supposed to be the case.

TSA screeners are supposed to assist in this.

TSA screeners are supposed to be cognizant of this.

The private screening request is honored if made. Not everyone wants it. The witness issue is up to the passenger also.

Final layer as in before the skin or as in outer most? If it before the skin, it should not come off. If it is outermost and its baggy it should be removed. Requests to pick up shirts to see waistline are not allowed. Unzipping pants is not allowed, Gawking down waistband? Hmm that is ambiguous. Have to see what is there in order to screen it or touch it.

It is supposed to be done this way.

They do.

They are not a waste of time. I dont understand you remark about been there done that with the shoe and bra thing. The last sentence is speculation.

Everything the TSA does is based on speculation. You feel there's a bomb in my shoe, take it off. You think there's a knife strapped to my leg, here...walk through this metal detector.

I'm willing to undergo screening that makes sense. This means, if I'm being wanded and the wand beeps near my belt buckle, don't make me undo my belt (It's the belt buckle, stupid!). If a woman in tight jeans and a tight top is being checked, don't pat her body down, when it's obvious that two sheets of paper would show through her blouse. You know, sensible stuff, not theatrics.

I don't mean to be alarmist, but a girlfriend of a friend of mine was actually subjected to a body cavity search at a US airport last week. She had not set off a metal detector, nor did she or her luggage test positive for any explosives or drugs. She has no criminal record.

The reasons for the search were much less concrete than that. She us a US citizen who was born abroad (to US parents, so she's always been a US citizen). She had presented her US passport as ID for a domestic flight instead of a driver's license. Her mother changed their last names when she divorced her father. She had purchased a one-way ticket.

It should be noted that they found nothing in any of her body cavities, and was allowed to board a flight.

Who performed this search and just how was it done? I fully understand if you would care to not reveal the details.

If this is true, I hope to God that she filed a complaint immediately.

I hope to God she files a lawsuit and that those involved in this assault are imprisoned for life.

That was my immediate reaction as well. But after her experience, she is very, very upset (there really aren't words to express this kind of thing) and isn't sure she wants to have to relive the experience, which is what it takes to bring a lawsuit or file a formal complaint. I can't say that I blame her.

It was TSA that performed the search. Because of the factors I mentioned, she had an SSSS on her boarding pass. When the screeners scanned her passport again, and saw that she had been born in another country and that her last name had been changed, that was when things went downhill quickly.

I will be flying next May, a one-way flight to catch a cruise ship that ends its sailing near my home. My last name was changed when I got married. I am not looking forward to that flight.

This thread was supposed to be about what is reasonable in a search. I think it's clear that what TSA believes is reasonable, and what the flying public thinks is reasonable, are two entirely different things. Before I heard about this incident, I was inclined to think that maybe the whole breast-search thing wasn't such a big deal, and all the slippery slope arguments were a bit overblown. Now I'm convinced that common sense is not at work at our airports.

If she underwent a body cavity search by the TSA, then she needs to see a lawyer immediately.

I will be happy to help her find one.