What do we consider reasonable?
 

Lots of complaints, what about ideas... What are we willing to put up with to be safe?

Acceptable polices?

Shoes over 1/2" average sole?
Hand search of person if alarmed?

Not acceptable policies?

Forced shoe removal when clearly not close to 1/2" average sole
Hand searches when?

We know that if someone were to swallow explosives, we would probably never catch them. So what level are we willing to accept?

Reasonable seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Some of us say reasonable is check my boarding pass once (this is more for airline revenue protection than anything but whatever), I'll play along and take my laptop out of my briefcase, walk through the WTMD and if I don't set off the alarm with my shoes on then don't be grope'n where ya'h shouldn't be poke'n.

Then there are those (who seem to always be the ones interviewed on TV or in the print press) who are all "I'm for WHATEVER it takes if it means I'm safer." Well then...

This week bras.

Still reasonable?

Next...panties and briefs.

Still reasonable?

Then boxers and rectums (M and F).

Still reasonable?

Then vaginas (F) and urinary tracts (M and F).

Still reasonable?

Then enemas and the colon and lower intestine.

Still reasonable?

We can't be too careful. Think about the children. Bad people will stick explosives anywhere they can.

So reasonable....I just don't know these days what that means but we sure are past it in my book :confused: .

Yes I'm cranky because I want 1 more day off before I have to submit myself to the MCI scrutiny point tomorrow who are in full-foot-fetish mode. But then I'll be in DCA at the Grand Hyatt for the week so all will be well.

And for those who say I'm being unreasonable...who would have thunk just a year ago we would be having so many threads dealing with genital and breast manipulation of innocent citizens by our government today...times, they are a changing!

Oh, I forgot, everything changed on 9/11 including the applicability of our Constitution.

I don't mind showing ID and walking through a metal detector. If it goes off, wand me, fine.

I think it's unreasonable to make me take off shoes and walk across a dirty floor.

I think it's unreasonable to make me take off flip-flops so that you can wand my bare feet.

To me, reasonable is the intrusiveness v. effectiveness. I don't think the mangnometer is overly intrusive. I'd rather there be no guns in the cabins (air marshals included), so I don't really have a big problem with that.

But considering all the other things that could happen during a flight, most of which have been discussed here ad naseum (nerve gas, non-metal sharp things, unscreened cargo, unaccounted-for surface-to-air missles, etc.), I can't justify a great deal of intrusion, as if someone really wants to bring down an aircraft, I think it's quite possible for them to do so.

What do I want?

First I want the flying public to be informed of how TSA agents are trained to do searches and what is an acceptable search. All back of the hand? Can a breast be squeezed or cupped?

I want all agent to wear tags that clearly display their names, in letters large enough to be read by anyone who is not legally blind.

If they are going to insist that everyone remove their shoes, then help should be offered to the elderly and/or disabled. I witnessed a very elderly gentleman, traveling alone, being forced to remove his tie shoes in EWR and no one was allowed to help him.

I want the TSA to recognize that some people do not have range of motion in their limbs to raise them or hold them at the level that TSA seems to demand. I witnessed another incident, this with an older woman, who told the screener she could not raise her arm as high as he was demanding. I thought for an few moments that he was going to pull it up to a position that suited him until another agent intervened.

I want any screening of women to be done by other women and behind a screen, with a witness chosen by the person being searched if she as asks for a witness.

No removal of the final layer of clothing, no picking up of shirts to visualize a bra, no unzipping of pants and no gawking down the waistband of pants.

If minors are pull aside to be patted down, a parent must be able to be by the child's side. Unescorted minors must be given a chaperone who is not a TSA employee.

I want the TSA to admit that these searches can be humiliating and traumatizing to some individuals.

Above all, I want the TSA to admit that these searches are nothing but a waste of time. We've been there, done that with the shoe and bra thing (at least allegedly with the bra thing). The next bomb will be in a body cavity.

What do you think? Think you live in a democracy or something? None of those policies were set with public feedback. If there is law to support them, it is secret law. No, it's not our choice. The policies we have will be set by our betters, based upon what they think is right for us.

You're on dangerous ground, Comrade. Sounds like you need to report for reeducation...

I'm willing to go back to pre-9/11 searches. The new ones make us a whole lot less safe. I'm willing to let my bag be searched but they should have to have an LEO present to touch my body.

I am willing to put up with a lot IF they do it to everyone. It's blatantly counterproductive to harass some people more than others: the bad guys can game that system to guarantee themselves the minimal search possible (MIT carnival booth paper). Ergo, only innocent travelers will ever be subjected to super-screening. If TSA were grabbing the breasts of every female traveller through the checkpoint, then (A) the screaming would already have reached a pitch loud enough to make things change, and (B) they'd have to ask Congress for more money and more people to do it. Therefore, I assume that TSA would have to scale back to something reasonable if they were required to apply the same search methods to everyone.

answers
 

Back of hand is only for sensitive areas. Breast cupping or squeezing is a no no.

That is supposed to be the case.

TSA screeners are supposed to assist in this.

TSA screeners are supposed to be cognizant of this.

The private screening request is honored if made. Not everyone wants it. The witness issue is up to the passenger also.

Final layer as in before the skin or as in outer most? If it before the skin, it should not come off. If it is outermost and its baggy it should be removed. Requests to pick up shirts to see waistline are not allowed. Unzipping pants is not allowed, Gawking down waistband? Hmm that is ambiguous. Have to see what is there in order to screen it or touch it.

It is supposed to be done this way.

They do.

They are not a waste of time. I dont understand you remark about been there done that with the shoe and bra thing. The last sentence is speculation.

Everything the TSA does is based on speculation. You feel there's a bomb in my shoe, take it off. You think there's a knife strapped to my leg, here...walk through this metal detector.

I'm willing to undergo screening that makes sense. This means, if I'm being wanded and the wand beeps near my belt buckle, don't make me undo my belt (It's the belt buckle, stupid!). If a woman in tight jeans and a tight top is being checked, don't pat her body down, when it's obvious that two sheets of paper would show through her blouse. You know, sensible stuff, not theatrics.

I don't mean to be alarmist, but a girlfriend of a friend of mine was actually subjected to a body cavity search at a US airport last week. She had not set off a metal detector, nor did she or her luggage test positive for any explosives or drugs. She has no criminal record.

The reasons for the search were much less concrete than that. She us a US citizen who was born abroad (to US parents, so she's always been a US citizen). She had presented her US passport as ID for a domestic flight instead of a driver's license. Her mother changed their last names when she divorced her father. She had purchased a one-way ticket.

It should be noted that they found nothing in any of her body cavities, and was allowed to board a flight.

without getting clinical
 

Who performed this search and just how was it done? I fully understand if you would care to not reveal the details.

If this is true, I hope to God that she filed a complaint immediately.

I hope to God she files a lawsuit and that those involved in this assault are imprisoned for life.

That was my immediate reaction as well. But after her experience, she is very, very upset (there really aren't words to express this kind of thing) and isn't sure she wants to have to relive the experience, which is what it takes to bring a lawsuit or file a formal complaint. I can't say that I blame her.

It was TSA that performed the search. Because of the factors I mentioned, she had an SSSS on her boarding pass. When the screeners scanned her passport again, and saw that she had been born in another country and that her last name had been changed, that was when things went downhill quickly.

I will be flying next May, a one-way flight to catch a cruise ship that ends its sailing near my home. My last name was changed when I got married. I am not looking forward to that flight.

This thread was supposed to be about what is reasonable in a search. I think it's clear that what TSA believes is reasonable, and what the flying public thinks is reasonable, are two entirely different things. Before I heard about this incident, I was inclined to think that maybe the whole breast-search thing wasn't such a big deal, and all the slippery slope arguments were a bit overblown. Now I'm convinced that common sense is not at work at our airports.

If she underwent a body cavity search by the TSA, then she needs to see a lawyer immediately. :eek:

I will be happy to help her find one.

I'd didn't ask for details about how the seach was done. Frankly, I just didn't want to know. All I had to hear was "body cavity search" and that was enough for me to be horrified.

I'm wondering if something like a body cavity search is still incredibly rare, and my friend's girlfriend was just horrifically unlucky, or if they are becoming increasingly common? Especially when they aren't based on any evidence of explosives or drugs. This is obviously the first time I'd heard of anything like this personally, so I don't have a very good frame of reference.

Ptsd
 

I fully understand why she would not want to file a formal complaint. She is a victim of sexual abuse and is suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Perhaps at some point in the future, she will feel strong enough to file a complaint.

Even if your friend's girlfriend finds herself unable to file formal charges at this time, she can help just by sending a very brief description of what happened to her to the ACLU at this website: http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm?ID=17104&c=39

The ACLU is considering taking action against patdown searches! I will triple my annual contribution if the ACLU files a lawsuit.

IMO, you (or anyone else, for that matter) who wants to take legal action against TSA should get a jump start immediately. The last thing you need is to run into problems with statutes of limitations, or especially evidence like logs and checkpoint videotapes getting tossed or erased. The sooner you start, the more likely the discovery process will yield all available evidence.

Will anyone at the TSA confirm that such searches have happened?

Wow :eek: :eek: Body cavity searches can be performed over here in the UK, but only if a magistrate has signed an order allowing it, which means Customs (its usually only for smuggling, I've NEVER heard of it being used as a security thing, and not sure that would actually be legal) must show probable cause.....

Please don't tell me that body cavity searches are subject to no oversight, and require no legal review before being proceeded with? :eek: well if so there's yet another reason not to visit the US!

What I consider reasonable: jackets off, not shoes. Patted down if alarmed or wearing anything too bulky. I don't even mind my underwired bra being felt up. Handbaggage searched as required by x-ray. Total hold screening (as defined in Europe - where everything going in gets screened), and no baggage flies without a passenger - i.e passenger no-shows, luggage is offloaded before plane departs - commonly called baggage reconciliation. Where baggage misconnects, it gets special screening.

Somebody should probably direct this poor woman to some sort of counselor to deal with the after effects of this abuse. The ACLU or some civil liberties group might also be interested in taking her legal case pro bono if it is as extreme as it sounds.

She should seriously consider ensuring that any checkpoint video is preserved, although my guess is that this would have occurred in a non-video "private" room and it may be too late anyway.

Retaliating against the people who did this with legal, criminal, and or media publicity may very well make her feel better and would do a public service. The media may be willing to keep her anonymous.

I think immigration/customs has to have a sign-off from a pretty high-level supervisor to do cavity searches, if I recall correctly. I've never heard of TSA having the authority to do such things. However, tt is inevitable that this sort of thing will occur, even in isolated incidents and without sanction by official policy, given the TSA's general tolerance for overzealous screeners/checkpoints with shoes, jewelry, clothes, patdowns, cross-gender secondaries, etc.

I hate to be a skeptic -- and this post is totally guaranteed to get me flamed big-time -- but I have a little trouble believing that the TSA did a body-cavity search on anybody. The TSA can search up to a point. That point keeps moving forward, beyond what most of us like, but it certainly hasn't reached body cavities yet. We would know about this! It would be in the news.

Moreover, passengers can stop a TSA search at any time and simply leave the airport. How many women would allow a search to reach the point described in this story? Wouldn't most women just leave and find another way home?

I am a major opponent of the TSA. But I try to base my opposition on actual practices and events, not stories that seem false. Sorry if I offend anybody.

Bruce

ummmm
 

This is either an urban legend, a fabrication or a lie, It did not happen.

I wish I had absolute certainty about things I haven't seen. I'd be like you and Santa Claus, seeing everyone all the time, knowing whether they've been bad or good. It would be neat, but my head would hurt, I think.

I, too, questioned it's truth (see my first responsive posting where I wrote "It this happened").


Bruce, I think you might be surprised at the number of women who are submissive enough to allow this to happen without questioning it.

I'm skeptical too. I didn't see it happen and it seems way out of line. I guess the fact is that none of us knows.

I can completely understand why you wouldn't believe me, and I don't blame you for being skeptical. Honestly, if I weren't the one who had posted this, I'd figure I was a crackpot who made the whole thing up. I mean, how can this sort of thing be true? How can this actually be happening in a country like America? In a fascist dictatorship, sure, that's believable, but in America? It's logicial to dismiss the story as just some legend posted on the internet, too absurd to be believed. And in a minute, even the people who believed me before are going to say I'm making the whole thing up. But, at the risk of any future credibility, here goes...

After I heard this friend's story, I e-mailed a friend of mine who is a public defender, since I don't know anyone more knowledgeable about search and seizure law, because there was no way in my mind that this could be reasonable under the law. And here's the part where even the people who weren't thinking I'm making this up start to believe I must be a liar: she said her stepmother was also subjected to a body cavity search on her last flight. She said that the TSA people told her that it is their policy to do regular extra screening (pat-downs and questioning) when someone has booked a one-way ticket, and to do a body cavity search if they're on a one-way ticket that they didn't pay for themself. Since her step-mom was on a one-way ticket and hadn't paid for it herself, she got the "extra screening" that involves a body cavity search.

When I read her e-mail, I thought to myself, "Someone is playing a sick joke on me." I mean, it's just not possible that I, a boring middle-class suburbanite office worker, could know not one, but two people who have been given body cavity searches by the TSA. I mean, if it's this prevalent, it would be all over CNN, wouldn't it? But my friend the public defender lives in the Pacific Northwest, and my friend whose girlfriend got searched lives in the DC area, and they've never met each other. And neither of them is psychotic enough to play that kind of joke on me.

My friend the public defender says that the ACLU is probably going to be taking action on this issue, so she recommended that people who have been subjected to cavity searches contact their local ACLU chapter.

Personally, I just can't bring myself to believe that there is a real TSA policy allowing body cavity searches simply because someone bought you a one-way plane ticket. If there is, wouldn't this board be covered with personal stories about these kinds of searches? Wouldn't the lawsuits be all over the news by now? I do believe that these two people were searched, because these two friends of mine are not prone to making things up, but I guess I'm inclined to see it as some bad-apple TSA agents who need to be reprimanded, not a systemic issue.

Now, everyone can go ahead with their "This is totally not believable" posts. Like I said, I don't blame you a bit, if it were anyone else but me writing this I'd be thinking the same thing.

Boy, oh, boy. Here I am defending the TSA!
 

OK, let me ask you: Why didn't either of these women just say, "I'm outta here," and leave? The TSA is not the Bureau of Corrections. They don't hold people prisoner and search them against their will.

Let me ask the women on this forum: How many of you would agree to a cavity search by the TSA? I can't believe that even one woman would agree to that. Submissive is one thing, but cavity searches from untrained strangers is quite another.

Bruce

That's exactly what my husband said when I told him about it. He said, "Why didn't they just say 'no, I'd rather go to jail than have a body cavity search?'" That's a very reasonable point, and probably what I would have done, along with demanding a lawyer. Then again, I've never been searched by the police before (other than the typical airport searches), so it's hard to say what a reasonable reaction would be. I don't want to invade this person's privacy any further, but I will say that the girlfriend who was searched has had some past experiences that may have affected her ability to think rationally in this situation.

I'm skeptical too, just in general, but let me remind you that several TSA and LEO-type posters have indicated here that once you approach the WTMD, you can NOT just withdraw your consent to screening and leave if they decide to make you a selectee, search your bag, pat you down, etc. The usual example is that if you realize the patdown/bag-search will find a gun, you can't just walk away scott free.

So under that logic, if they decided to strip/probe you, you couldn't back out.

I still strongly doubt there is any official TSA policy about doing cavity searches and suspect that if it is happening, it is limited to a few overzealous checkpoints. I also suspect that if it is happening, it will make the news very very soon, probably prior to Christmas.

I hope the perpetrators of any such policy go to jail, and the victims of any such policy get every penny of the personal $ and property of any screener/supervisor that "made up" any such unofficial policy.

Or exaggerate perhaps ? What I/we consider to be a body cavity search may not in fact be what took place. I certainly do not disbelieve that rogue TSA screeners could do such a thing, but until something more tangible than hearsay is presented, I'll reserve judgment.

I think that is an eminently reasonable point of view. One of the reasons I posted this story, depsite it being hearsay, was that I was hoping others might be able to shed some light on this subject. From a purely selfish standpoint, I would like to be reassured that this is a very out-of-the-ordinary experience and that I have no reason to expect to be searched in this manner when I try to board an airplane. So, if nobody else posts a similar story, I would chalk it up to a very bad TSA agent, and not be worried the next time I fly. Conversely, if lots of other people post that they have been subjected to body cavity searches, then I think we should all be worried.

I don't think either of the people who were searched would have exaggerated the story, or would have a different definition of body-cavity search than the rest of us. But, like I said, I don't expect people to take my word for it, I'm just some random person on the internet.

I have no problem believing it happened, and I am truly outraged that it was done by the TSA - the ACLU needs to be on this fast! Are body-cavity searches part of the 'secret' TSA SOP that no one is suppose to know about? What authority is granted the TSA or law enforcement to hold someone for a search if they refuse one?

In another thread I mentioned the experience of a friend of mine at ATL a number of years ago (well pre-9/11). Upon checking in at the DL counter for a reserved-but-not-paid one-way ticket, the agent refused the credit card because of the limited time to departure and insisted on cash (the fare was only $75). When my friend paid cash, she picked up the phone and called the ATL police who took him away to a back room, illegally searched his bags and performed a strip-search (including a cavity exam) before escorting him to the plane. I was so enraged, I wouldn't quit hollering until he agreed to hire a lawyer. The lawyer was too much of a chicken-sh$$ to sue the police, but he did sue Delta, and the issue was settled out of court.

This type of activity has been going on for a long time - about the only thing that allows it to continue is the submissive behavior of its victims. People need to learn to say "no!".

I call upon the ACLU to begin gathering data on this activity and prepare the appropriate legal challenges, and I would also like to ask Joe Sharkey to begin looking into this for a potential report in the NYT.

Just speculating, but there may have been some procedural issues barring the suit against the police in the situation you described. It's a lot easier to sue a corporate entity than it is to sue a government entity (yes, I went to law school). Not to say that the lawyer wasn't also cowardly, I mean, I wasn't part of this situation so I can't say.

My understanding is that the ACLU is already working on this issue (along with the pat-down search issues that others have raised), so you don't have to worry about calling on them to take action. As for the NYT, I don't know if they're working on a story or not. I have no connections in the media.