EWR B (NW/DL - low # gates) this AM

Old Nov 16, 04, 11:06 am
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EWR B (NW/DL - low # gates) this AM

Was at EWR today:

ALL SHOES MUST COME OFF TO ENTER METAL DETECTOR



I was not allowed to proceed through the WTMD without shoe removal. This was terminal B (lower # gates, NW/DL area). Furthermore, the lines were slow and everything/everyone was scritinized heavily. My keychain was checked three times, as an example.

PLUS:

TWO ID & BP CHECKS PLUS TWO ADDITIONAL BP CHECKS (in less than 20 ft)

FOUR BP CHECKS TOTAL



When I entered the line, I showed my ID/BP to the non-TSA checker (1). Prior to the checkpoint, the TSA checked my ID and BP (2) and then said "keep your boarding pass out, it will be checked two more times".

I inquired why, and the TSA agent said "the first ID checker is hired by the airlines, we don't trust her". I then asked why two more times and said "Does the next person not trust you, and the person there after not trust anyone?" I did so in a civil jokingly manner and she just smiled and said that's our procedure. I have a feeling she thought it was overboard as well.

Needless to say, once on the other side of the WTMD, just a couple of feet from the previous check, the TSA checks it again (3). I put my shoes on, walk a few feet, the TSA checks it again (4).

I'm sorry, this is bloody harassment and a waste of taxpayer money; it doesn't do crap to add to security.

Now, across the state line at JFK, I have yet to be de-shoed once this year.

Go figure

TSAMGR -- any chance you can go to EWR to straigten them out?

Best,

SDF_Traveler

P.S. I was also threatened with secondary if I did not remove my shoes at DTW yesterday, at the checkpoint after US Customs to re-enter the terminal. Keep in mind, these are supposedly "non-profile" shoes, no metal shanks, and thin soles, which I purchased specifically for air travel.

P.P.S: Good news, no shoe removal at SDF, JFK, AMS, LHR, or LGW over the past few days on this recent trip. In fact, I was impressed with the TSA at JFK Terminal 4 East on Friday evening. The (long) lines moved fast, the agents were assertive at getting people to remove jackets and "profile" shoes, and it was a pleasant experience. The team working T4 East at JFK did great -- The most efficient, high volume, TSA station I've seen lately.
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Old Nov 16, 04, 11:18 am
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Originally Posted by SDF_Traveler
TSAMGR -- any chance you can go to EWR to straigten them out?
Don't count on that help. Perhaps you missed this thread where TSAMGR where, in this post he asserts that this is a sane and necessary policy.
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Old Nov 16, 04, 2:25 pm
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Originally Posted by xyzzy
Don't count on that help. Perhaps you missed this thread where TSAMGR where, in this post he asserts that this is a sane and necessary policy.
Thanks for pointing out the above thread.

As long as the SSSS exists, which is a joke from a security standpoint (the way it is currently operated), I believe they're wasting time by double, triple, and quadruple checking for the SSSS's. It's a waste of taxpayer money, IMHO.

To play devil's advocate for a minute, if a "real" selectee program existed which added to security, I could understand the need to double-check the BP's. Being tagged a selectee for flying one-way, being one-way on a codeshare, or having your flight changed is not a real program to identify higher risk passengers. It's silly window dressing and amounts to nothing more than passenger harassment.

As it is with most airports, I could at least (partially) understand when a second check is done depending on the setup -- but FOUR? As far as I'm concerned, one check is sufficient; it's not like you can miss the SSSS. If there is an SSSS lane, check once prior and send them there -- if there isn't and it's a mixed lane, check once immediately after the WTMD and put them in the "pen" for secondary.

Additionally, why two ID checks? One by the private and one by the TSA? The only other station that has done that to me is LEX. At most airports the private security will check the ID and the TSA just wants to see the BP. The airlines might as well eliminate the private ID/BP checker at EWR and save a few dollars. What's the point if you have "security" in place that can't be trusted? In the screeners own words, she is hired by the airlines and "we don't trust her"

The second check was done immediately in front of the WTMD, the 3rd check was done immediately after the WTMD. The 2nd and 3rd TSA officers were right next to each other (a few steps apart) -- the only thing inbetween the WTMD. This is an absolutely ridicilous waste of resources. The 4th check was just a few steps further at the end of the checkpoint.

FWIW, I think I'm going to just start wearing sandal's to the airport and stand firm if I'm asked to remove them. With the new secondary procedures in place, I'm now more inclined to give in and remove my shoes when I hit a shoe carnival checkpoint (unless I have a lot of extra time, which isn't always the case).

In conclusion, if I want a shoe carnival, I'd go to the Shoe Carnival (a cheesy 'discount' shoe shop here in town)

Best,

SDF_Traveler
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Old Nov 16, 04, 3:56 pm
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Originally Posted by SDF_Traveler
As it is with most airports, I could at least (partially) understand when a second check is done depending on the setup -- but FOUR? As far as I'm concerned, one check is sufficient; it's not like you can miss the SSSS. If there is an SSSS lane, check once prior and send them there -- if there isn't and it's a mixed lane, check once immediately after the WTMD and put them in the "pen" for secondary.
Here's how we do it at myr. If there's only one lane open then it's obviously integrated so we check BP at the WTMD (in addition to the ticket checker who checks BP and IDs at the beginning of the queue to the checkpoint no matter how many lanes are open.) This is to see if the person was missed as a selectee. (Total BP checks: 2) Once lane 2 opens, Lane 2 does not check BP because the selectees are supposed to be in Lane 1. (Total BP checks: Lane 1: 2; Lane 2: 1) Once all 3 lanes are open, lane 3 becomes selectee only so there are no TSA BP checks anywhere. (Total BP checks: all lanes: 1)

Additionally, why two ID checks? One by the private and one by the TSA? The only other station that has done that to me is LEX. At most airports the private security will check the ID and the TSA just wants to see the BP. The airlines might as well eliminate the private ID/BP checker at EWR and save a few dollars. What's the point if you have "security" in place that can't be trusted? In the screeners own words, she is hired by the airlines and "we don't trust her"
I don't get that because we don't check IDs at myr. That's the ticket checker's job and we trust him/her to do that job. Once people are queued up behind the ticket checker, there's nowhere for them to go. Now a lot of times people give us their ID thinking we need to check it but we don't. We just check what we need to check on the boarding pass and don't say otherwise.

The second check was done immediately in front of the WTMD, the 3rd check was done immediately after the WTMD. The 2nd and 3rd TSA officers were right next to each other (a few steps apart) -- the only thing inbetween the WTMD. This is an absolutely ridicilous waste of resources. The 4th check was just a few steps further at the end of the checkpoint.
I agree. The check prior to the WTMD and the check at the end of the checkpoint seem redundant to me.
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Old Nov 16, 04, 10:58 pm
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Originally Posted by xyzzy
Don't count on that help. Perhaps you missed this thread where TSAMGR where, in this post he asserts that this is a sane and necessary policy.
Beside showing everyone you know how to make hyperlinks are you serving some sort of purpose?

If you actually read the post you may have realized that I was explaining the (TSA) motive behind the multiple BP checks. Anywhere in that post was it said it was sane and necessary or that I agreed with it? If you didn't stop looking for threads when you found one which filled your purpose you would have found a post from me which states that my airports have the ticket checker check BP & ID then the WTMD quickly checks the BP. Two people, thats all. TSA wants it done so it needs to be done, we used a common sense approach.

Since you have started posting here you have posted many snide remarks. As a moderator it would appear to others that your sentiments are those of FlyerTalk. As such it may represent FlyerTalk as being bias against certain groups. The moderators of the T S/S have been working hard to bring civility here and it appears to me that you remarks are detrimental to their efforts. I am sure you wouldn't want to give your fellow moderators more work.

Have a wonderful day.

Last edited by TSAMGR; Nov 16, 04 at 11:09 pm
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Old Nov 17, 04, 12:03 pm
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I think we need to have a Sticky with TSAMGR's explanation behind the multiple ID checks.
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Old Nov 17, 04, 12:16 pm
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With the new secondary procedures in place, I'm now more inclined to give in and remove my shoes when I hit a shoe carnival checkpoint (unless I have a lot of extra time, which isn't always the case).
SDF,

I'm definitely not picking on you, but it appears as if the TSA has sucessfully social-engineered you. (I work for a senior government official who calls this "...using you as a training aid.")
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Old Nov 17, 04, 12:16 pm
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What's the deal with being required to remove your shoes before going through the metal detector? Can they do this when we read that it is suggested that we remove them on the TSA website. I have never removed my shoes to walk through and don't intend to. What should we do in this situation?
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Old Nov 17, 04, 1:20 pm
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Inconsistencies...

Honestly, if there was a policy that required all passengers to take their shoes off, I'd be glad to comply. Like many other FTers, i bought a pair of shoes that have no metal - typical running shoes that let me fly through security. However, last month, I flew PIT-IAH on a Friday evening with no issues at all. The TSA screeners told me that my shoes may not pass (they assumed there was metal), but I told them that there was no metal and they waved me through. (I actually like PIT for that reason - consistent TSA screeners, so far..!)

While flying back from IAH-PIT the following Sunday, TSA made an announcement to everyone standing in line "Our new policy requires all passengers to take their shoes off. We need to X-ray the shoes". I politely asked him when the "new" policy went into effect. His answer "Two weeks ago" I asked him if this was a IAH only policy. He said it was a "nationwide" policy. Apparently his nation is IAH Terminal C between 5pm and 7pm.

This lack of consistency is what riles people...
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Old Nov 17, 04, 1:39 pm
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Shoe Carnival at EWR

I am in EWR just about every week, either traveling or escorting my son through security, usually Terminal C. We are ALWAYS, without fail, asked to remove our shoes -- sneakers -- flip flops. The one time I was wearing thin rubber flip flops and refused, I was sent to secondary, despite not setting off the alarms.

It may not be the TSA's policy, but it certainly is in Terminal C.
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Old Nov 17, 04, 1:49 pm
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I fly term C and A2 frequently and have never been asked to remove my sneakers...yet people both behind and in front of me have been asked to remove their shoes/sneakers.

I am now more confused than ever, sorry have never used Term B to know their rules and regs. I have to say that the TSA employees at Term C and A2 are really friendly and nice and always are willing to joke and laugh with their customers.

In fact without fail they great me by my first name and ask how my week is going and actually help to brighten my day a little. Nowhere else do I experience that kind of service from the TSA. I wish more screeners were like them.

Dan
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Old Nov 17, 04, 10:39 pm
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Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
SDF,

I'm definitely not picking on you, but it appears as if the TSA has sucessfully social-engineered you. (I work for a senior government official who calls this "...using you as a training aid.")
Sadly, you're partially correct. I would love to go through each time, keep em' on, and tell them where to shove their policy. I've done it in the past 100% of the time until this new "friendlier" secondary crap started.

I've been through this new "friendlier" secondary crap as "punishment" for failure to remove shoes, which in one case included a crotch (grope) pat down when the wand beeped on my zipper. The new "friendly" screenings take longer and unless I have a lot of time, I'm finding it's not worth messing with. If I know I have plenty of extra time, I'll walk through with em' on.

Perhaps we all need to meet at a Shoe Carnival airport and have a "Shoe Do". We can all refuse removal, go to secondary as a group, in one big happy line, and each complete complaint cards at the end after individually speaking with the checkpoint manager

Best,

SDF_Traveler
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Old Nov 17, 04, 11:40 pm
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Originally Posted by SDF_Traveler
Sadly, you're partially correct. I would love to go through each time, keep em' on, and tell them where to shove their policy. I've done it in the past 100% of the time until this new "friendlier" secondary crap started.
Maybe this is the point...an intimidation tactic.


Originally Posted by SDF_Traveler
Perhaps we all need to meet at a Shoe Carnival airport and have a "Shoe Do". We can all refuse removal, go to secondary as a group, in one big happy line, and each complete complaint cards at the end after individually speaking with the checkpoint manager
Joking aside, this may be exactly what's needed. If enough people refused to take off their shoes, the silliness would stop. Simple as that. Whether that means 20, 50, or 100 people at a time, whatever it would take to bring the checkpoint to a halt is what would have to happen.

If we could coordinate this in multiple airports at the same time nationwide, the message may get across.
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Old Nov 18, 04, 4:19 am
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Originally Posted by channa
Maybe this is the point...an intimidation tactic.




Joking aside, this may be exactly what's needed. If enough people refused to take off their shoes, the silliness would stop. Simple as that. Whether that means 20, 50, or 100 people at a time, whatever it would take to bring the checkpoint to a halt is what would have to happen.
I have waited in line at a security checkpoint in Terminal C EWR for over an hour on more than one occasion (before being elite). I have seen the line actually have to stop at the escalator and continue downstairs. Then of course, it takes longer, because the redcoats are checking boarding passes and pulling people to the front of the line who are in danger of missing flights.

IMO, I don't think the screeners care how long it takes, how long the line is, or how inconvenient it is for travelers. They work their shift no matter how many people they screen.
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Old Nov 18, 04, 8:38 am
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Originally Posted by climbermom
Then of course, it takes longer, because the redcoats are checking boarding passes and pulling people to the front of the line who are in danger of missing flights.
I am relishing the appropriateness of TSA employees being referred to as "redcoats". The British forces were the redcoats in the War of the American Revolution: here's hoping the forces of liberty will win the second war against the redcoat battalion of government tyranny.
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