HeHateY

In giving this some thought, I am still not understanding why the FAM(s) must sit in front of the now-non-existant curtain?

It would seem to me that the best postion for an Air Marshal would be sitting in the aisle seats of the first row of Y, a.k.a. the bulkhead row.

This would apply of course to the narrow-bodies that make up the overwhelming majority of domestic flights today.

(A discussion of seating on wide-bodied aircraft can be left to another thread)

In some aircraft, such as the DC-9 or Fokker-28 derivatives, the aisle seat on the 3-seat side of the aircraft actually sits nearly in the middle of the F aisle, giving a perfect view of the goings on in F.

The typical FAM is a well-conditioned (not overweight) person, right? So they will fit nicely into the typical 17-inch-wide Y seat leaving the F seats for larger passengers and airline revenue.

(On a side note, surely the Air Marshal service does compensate the airlines for the lost revenue in some manner, no?)

Can the FAMs that have joined us here on FT shed some insight as to why they must sit in 4C and not 10C where 10C is just behind 4C and offers a more direct path to the cockpit?

coldplatehater

Maybe the carriers write it off on taxes.

FWAAA

Marshals sit wherever they want, because the law says they can.

And no, the government does not compensate the airlines for the seats.

The most recent federal bailout reimbursed the airlines the $10 September 11 Security Fee plus the costs of reinforcing the flight deck doors, but lost revenue for Marshals' seats was not included.

Incorrect. No such writeoff exists. I note that your misinformation regarding the tax treatment of seats occupied by Marshals mimics that provided by some of your colleagues (a couple of whom were recently banned).

Welcome to Flyertalk.

Doppy

They don't "have to" they "want to."

I want to sit in first class too. But I pay for my seat, one way or another, rather than occupying a seat non-rev.

They claim they need to be right up by the cockpit door, but I don't see why they can't be close to the cockpit from Y. That would actually give them more room to manuever before taking on any potential hijackers or pulling out a gun (if it hasn't been commandeered by the hijackers).

From a security standpoint, I don't think there's any difference between the front of Y and first class. The cockpit doors are supposed to be strong enough to keep people out, at least for a reasonable amount of time, which should be more than enough time for the marshal to walk a couple extra rows.

Off topic, but, BTW, is there really any way for security to know with 100.000% certainty that the supposed "air marshal" they're letting through security with a gun is really an air marshal?

law dawg

Do you know where the 9/11 hijackers were sitting and how they took control of the flight deck? Maybe you should educate yourself on that score....

sapman986

Maybe instead of being inflammatory, you could try to answer the OP's question in a straightforward manner?

law dawg

I am continually amazed. Someone can say that government people only do things because they "want" to, but I can't say "educate yourself". One is not inflammatory and the other is. Whatever.

And no, I am not going to do their research for them. If they want to assert themselves as someone knowledgable about a topic then they must defend their words. And he who asserts must prove.

It amazes me people spout off here about all the things they would do and change and haven't even done the basic research necessary to intelligently talk about the topics they are discussing.

sapman986

The loss of F seats is one of the biggest bones of contention FFers have with the FAM program whether they like to admit it or not.

I don't see what the problem is with the question posed by the OP. If you have some information as to why the F cabin is used over the Y cabin, please share it. If you don't, then don't tell people to "do their research". What does that contribute? The OP is "doing his research" by asking the question here, as there are many FAMs reading this forum. THis is as good a place as any to ask the question.

If you don't want to answer with a reasonable reply (for whatever reason) then leave the thread alone.

law dawg

And that is fine. However, I was responding to the Doppy, who was not inquiring but was pronouncing. He was inflammatory and received no censure from you, while I responded and did.

As far as the question goes it is a good one. To answer I would research the 9/11 commission book and see where the 9/11 guys sat. Almost all in first class close to the flight deck (8D, 8G, 10B (business class), 2A, 2B in 767. 12A, 12B, 1B,5E, 5F in 767. 1B, 3C, 3D and 6B in 757. 1B, 2C, 3D and 6B in 757).

If the door is open then it is a foot race to the flight deck. Want to bet your life on such a race? How far back do you want some of the few awake people on the plane?

swanscn

I am not certain of where the people were sitting on 9/11 so please tell me (us). And besides I am not sure that were they were sitting would make much of a difference. Please remember that at that time SOP was co-operate with the hijackers and get the plane on the ground safely, except they had no intention of letting that happen

law dawg

True and good point. That, however, only applied to American 11 that crashed into WTC North. Every other plane either knew (American 77 and United 93) or suspected (United 175) what was going to happen. Only United 93 fought back.

As far as that goes, if you want access to anything as quickly as possible then you want to be as close as possible. Look at hijackings across the globe from 1985 until today and you will see a commonality in seating.

swanscn

I am not certain that flights 77 or 175 passengers were aware of what was happening. At least I have not heard of this or read about that before now.
From the reports that have been coming out I think is is clear that not too many people on the ground or in the air have a clear understanding of what was taking place.

Spiff

Perhaps you should educate yourself as well. All 2 air marshals would have done was attempted to negotiate with the terrorists and caused two very expensive federal funerals to be added to the cost of 9/11.

The passengers and crew will no longer negotiate with terrorists. The cockpit door is secure. Air marshals are an expensive attempt at unnecessary redundancy that is simply theft of premium cabin from the airlines so that two sacks of ballast with guns can ride up front.

The money wasted on this program would be better spent checking passengers, employees and cargo for explosives, which is something that the ballast air marshals and their guns and tin stars can do nothing about.

SeatStealer

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I can think of numerous reasons why being seated in the Y cabin places the FAM at a disadvantage. Coach uses a drink cart that blocks the aisle. Do you really think the bad guys are not smart enough to exploit this? There are several others I would use, but I'm not giving them any ideas on this forum.

I'm not sure what line of work these people are in that say the airlines are not compensated. Maybe everyone that makes a statement on this board should give their full background so we can weed out the made up posts from the educated ones. I have a Masters in Accounting. I am a licensed CPA. The airlines are given a direct credit for the full fare revenue of the seat the FAM takes. For the lamen a credit is different than a deduction off their taxes. Since the airlines have had no taxable revenue, a deduction would do them no good. A credit can be applied even with no revenue. Think of the earned income credit. A person below the poverty level that pays no income tax gets a check back for thousands of dollars at the end of the year. This is a direct credit. The airlines are not complaining about us taking revenue seats because they get a hell of alot more money from us than they do from whiners such as Spiffey that demand his upgrade like my 9 month old.

Spiff

Actually, they get nothing from the marshals. No tax credit, nothing. My source? The CEOs of several companies who complained to Congress about this very fact. Sorry to disappoint you, but I also sometimes pay for F in addition to being upgraded into it. So your theory about sacks of ballast providing more revenue than I do is about the same as the whole air marshal program: a load of crap.