Moderation Mode
 

[moderator hat on]

Since there is no direct relevance to AA and the exchange is getting to the level of discomfort, this thread will be closed. I would suggest continuing discussion in Travel Safety/Security forum.

[moderator hat off]

Is that not much like the worldview of extremists who believe that you are either with them or against them? :rolleyes:

There is a proper balance, but gate checks provide little to no security. If you are interested in knowing how an aircraft can be taken over, I am sure someone can come up with a method to do such and circumvent the gate check and even the main security checkpoint. I hope such circumvention never happens, but the gate checks are a failure and another false security god.

You know, that sounds like the perfect solution to me.

I'd get on a plane like that in a second. Terrorists would leave it alone because they know they'd die and they wouldn't be able to carry out their mission. The entire dog-and-pony show security system we have now could be dismantled.

What concerns me is that you don't think this is a good idea. You actually think it is funny. Well, the fact is, your life is already in the hands of a pilot, airport security is already full of holes, and there is no real deterrent for anyone who can get on board with a weapon.

Add to that the fact that cargo-planes can still be used as flying bombs and it seems that, well, you just want the feeling of safety rather than the real thing. It's particularly strange that you can have that feeling despite its obvious falsehood. But, you're not alone, that seems to the state that most of the public is in.

Don't think too much about security, you might start to really worry.

You know what.. I might just take such a flight.. The terrorists sure wouldnt.. they'd know that the passengers on board have NOTHING to lose by fighting to the last man woman or child.. Sheer weight of numbers even if they are armed would cause most plots to fail.. The land of the free is actually significantly LESS free than its colonial parent is today.. Its sad to see so many rights violated so quickly.. In only four years we've lost Fair use rights, 4th amendment rights and others..

I agree totally.

Bruce

I was, as you pointed out, being facetious about the special planes for ACLU/libertarians (though some, no doubt, took me seriously). Another idea is one proposed by TV's Archie Bunker.....hand out guns to all passengers as they get on and collect them when they get off. :D I definitely agree with you 100% about the cargo plane issue and hope the government/cargo airlines have taken serious steps towards improving security there. Both in terms of ensuring that no flight crew are security threats, through rigorous background checks, and ensuring that cargo pallets are free of terrorist hitchhikers. A fully loaded 747 cargo jet could do more damage than the 767s/757 that they used on 9/11. Also, I think all would agree that the random gate checks are totally useless. I worry more about another shoe bomber trying his luck. AFAIK, there are no explosives detectors at security checkpoints which would reveal shoes with plastic explosives. Another major problem is that our "free and open" society has free and open borders which potentially allow all kinds of undesirables to cross. I'm not talking about hard-working folks who are simply trying to improve their lives economically. I'm talking about the extremist vermin who want to terminate our lives. But border security is a whole other issue.

Why the shoe fetish?
 

Shoes are not the only place explosives can be hidden. The same or greater volume of explosives can easily be hidden in someone's underwear or body cavities. Relying on stupid, un-American shoe checks is just as foolish as gate harassment. I often wonder what people who advocate these stupid shoe checks would do if Richard Reid had tried to put his bomb in his pants. Same stupid response? Different, more intelligent response such as an explosives detector that actually works without requiring people be strip searched as they are now? Amazing.

As for border security, I am in favor of open borders just as is the case with EU-EU travelers. Feel free to start another thread and we can discuss that one too. ;)

No, I think everyone knew you were being facetious. The funny part is that you should have taken the thought seriously yourself when you thought it.

Things can't be too bad since we haven't had another terrorist incident since 9/11 ;) Now, you can say it is because of all of the "security" but you've enumerated the holes yourself.

If you are serious about all of this, I don't know how you manage to fly. It's obviously unsafe by your accounting. Yet your inclination is to do more things that leave more holes. It doesn't seem like a very rational position.

Frankly, I think the cockpit door locks eliminated just about all threats from the passenger area. The worst that can happen now is a hostage situation but there won't be anymore flying into buildings. Frankly, I don't thing passengers will let a hostage situation go on very long either. Maybe your faith is somewhat less than mine.

The no-security airline for ACLU/libertarians would actually not work because there would be plenty of nutcases who, instead of committing "suicide by cop" would just try to take over a plane and get it blown up instead. As far as Muslim terrorists are concerned, there isn't much that can be done, in general, as long as they're willing to take their own pathetic lives except (perhaps) punishing their relatives very severely as the Israelis do. This, of course, is all hypothetical because it's clearly illegal under our system. But if terrorists knew that whatever hovels their relatives lived in would be totally destroyed and those relatives imprisoned (although the Israelis don't do that), they might think twice about doing their dastardly deeds. They might get to fornicate with 76 virgins in the hereafter (or whatever utter nonsense they believe), but whoever means anything to them in this world will suffer greatly. Same goes for whoever provided any assistance to them. This might upset some liberals who believe all suspects deserve multi-million dollar defense teams and, if convicted, years worth of appeals while they sit in their air-conditioned cells watching cable television and taking college courses paid for by the taxpayer. But it would serve as a deterrent. Of course, as I said before, that kind of thing would be totally illegal under our current system. It really is frightening when you think of the things these creeps can do in our society. Remember the D.C. snipers and what their rampage did to everyday life? Imagine if you had Muslim kids with explosive backpacks attending the same classes your kids attend. Like I said, frightening. :(

Another brilliant advocate of communal punishment? :rolleyes:

Sounds like you have solved real political problems before!! LOL :D

Common sense is apparently in short-supply everywhere.

Northern Virginia? Land of the Founding Fathers now taken over by those who believe so little in liberty (as shown by the votes). ;)

Well the Israelis do it (what you call communal punishment) and I wouldn't describe them as dummies. Yeah, I know that they still have terrorist attacks, but at least they make the families of those terrorists, who cheer them on and get payments from Saudis and Iraq's former dictator, pay a price. Apparently the only liberty the truly clueless believe in is the liberty to bury the victims of terrorist attacks and then just hope that the terrorists run out of explosives or maybe if we're real nice to them and give them everything they want (which even a liberal probably wouldn't have the slightest idea of what that is), they'll stop killing us. (Does the name Neville Chamberlain ring a bell?) Of course there's always the "Blame America First" crowd which says we deserve it. I personally think that this situation is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Worse to the point where even folks like you will want to take action. Even you will eventually realize that there are some truly evil people in this world and will favor, as George Bush has said, bringing them to justice or bringing justice to them. :(

Nobody is advocating doing nothing. (nice double negative!)

What many of us are advocating is not destroying the principles upon which this nation was founded because some murderers don't like us. Do we always piss away our freedoms so easily? Terrorists and those who support them should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. But that is no excuse for treating everyone as a terrorist or a criminal until proven otherwise.

The Israelis (meaning their government) are idiots. It's been more than 30 years and they are still dealing with this mess and I don't see an end for 10 more years.

Some people are saying predictive models foresee a serious bio- or chemical-attack on Israel within the next 10 years. So much for all that Israeli security hype. ;)

I am the last one to advocate twiddling your thumbs and engaging in ignorant self-gratification. However, the plan required to resolve this issue substantially involved pissing off a few hundred thousand Israeli settlers and Palestinian maximalists. Push the 3-state solution on the explicit 67 borders and I will bet every penny I have that terrorism levels drop by by at least 50% in terms of attack counts. ;)

The place is a war zone!
 

Agree 100%!

Why anyone would want to duplicate the so-called "security" that Israel has is beyond me. :confused:

That's one area where we definitely disagree. Unlike what the previous administration did (or didn't do is more like it), the Bush administration recognizes that this is a war we're in, not a criminal prosecution. "Law" doesn't enter in. UBL and their ilk don't give a rat's rump about Grand Jury investigations, indictments, etc. If they're armed non-U.S. citizens outside U.S. borders, it's shoot them on the spot, or, if they choose to surrender, interrogation and off to Gitmo. Non-U.S. citizens not wearing a uniform are the equivalent of spies and don't have the same legal protections as U.S. citizens accused of breaking laws in this country. Re "treating everyone as a terrorist...", I don't equate wanding at a TSA checkpoint, searching/x-raying my baggage, etc or even checking what I've taken out of the public library as being treated as a terrorist. That kind of treatment is much gentler than they deserve.