SDF_Traveler

Greetings -

How often do the EDT trace detection machines where surfaces are swabbed give false alarms?

On Thursday at SDF my checked luggage alarmed with the CTX machine because of a shampoo bottle. Go figure - millions of dollars spent on machines that can't tell the difference between explosives and shampoo bottles.

My luggage was then opened and swabbed with me present. The screener swabbed inside a plastic bag that contained a shampoo & condintioner bottle, deoderant, a small bottle of mouth wash, toothpaste, and hair spray/gel. The swab then came up positive for "TNT like explosives". Sounds to me like these trace EDT machines can't tell the difference between residue on common hygene products & "TNT like explosives".

I'd really like to know how much taxpayer money was wasted on all this non-functional equipment. It seems 1 in 4 bags was alarming with the CTX at SDF, but I didn't see anyone else "alarm" on the trace swab test.

A TSA supervisor was called over who then asked for my drivers license, tickets, etc., and he documented my information. My baggage was further hand searched, shampoo bottles openened, etc., and then "cleared" after about 20+ minutes of farting around over shampoo, deoderant, mouthwash (etc) and a small amount of clothing.

The TSA agent had the nerve to suggest that I might of handled a gun and then touched my luggage. When I said I didn't own a gun, he then said I might of touched fireworks and then my luggage (buzz, wrong again - I haven't messed with fireworks in years).

I asked the supervisor how often these "false alarms" happened with the trace EDT and he said they are "rare", but they do happen. Other than his suggestion that it might of been caused because of me handling firearms/ammo, the TSA Supervisor was generally polite & professional.

Despite the supervisor being generally polite & professional, this whole thing was a ridicilous waste of time as it only should of taken a whole 2 minutes at most to see I had nothing dangerous/illegal. Instead it took 20+ minutes and I didn't initially appreciate being told I had a "TNT like" substance in my luggage & being treated like a criminal where I had to produce my ID and other information first, prior to being cleared.

At the same time, I thought it was a crock of rubbish the TSA had to request my ID and document my name, ticket information, and other information into some government logbook. Anyone know what information "Big Brother" keeps in these logbooks & how long it is retained? I want to know what was written, where it is being kept, and/or who/where it is being sent to.

Considering my bag was cleared, I did nothing wrong, and had nothing illegal on me, I thought it was none of his business who I was / where I was flying, let alone documenting it in a government logbook of some type.

When is this bull$h1t going to end? I had no problems with the same luggage & items, other than another CTX alarm, on my next three trips. The same luggage and items were swabbed again at other airports over the past several days and this "TNT substance" that was present on Thursday had just "disappeared". I was carrying the same luggage and items for three other check-ins.

FWIW, I then cleared checkpoint security with no problems and no shoe removal at SDF. I was asked to remove them, but I responded they were airport friendly. No beep and I moved on.

A couple days later I then dealt with the TSA in Orlando (MCO) who were a bunch of rude, power-tripping goons. The baggage screening at MCO is a mess and some TSA goon told me to get lost as I was waiting for my luggage to be processed. The whole baggage screening operation at MCO is a royal mess and all I wanted to do was watch my luggage clear the process to ensure it made it to the luggage belt (especially in light of the bull$h1t that happened at SDF a few days earlier). It appeared almost 50% of all checked bags at MCO were alarming on the CTX. Lets just say it seemed more checked bags got secondary searches than those removed from the CTX machine and placed on the luggage belt. Needless to say, my suitcase failed the CTX machine with the many others.

The TSA agents working the checkpoint at MCO were a bunch of rude *****s who wanted me to walk-through the arch while my cell-phone & other valuables were waiting to go down the belt and into the machine. I don't care what some TSA ***** says, but I want my valuables in sight and that means waiting to walk through the arch if my valuables haven't entered the machine. Once my stuff enters the x-ray machine, I will gladly walk through the arch.

I managed to pass through without beeping and no secondary; shoes were in-tact on my feet at all times. No one was demanding shoe removal in my line, but the line next to me had 100% shoe removal requests. Most people in my line were taking their shoes off anyhow.

At DTW early this week I encountered the best TSA treatment over the past several days. Polite, professional from luggage to checkpoint.

Anyway, this rant is getting long but this TSA crap is just getting worse. One would think things would improve over time, but it seems like things are getting worse. No consistency between any of the airports I used.

Last bur not least, anyone get one of those blue 'tamper proof' "cable ties" the TSA is now using with 8 - 9 digit serial #'s? These things are as fragile as they get and anything but tamper proof considering they come apart during the luggage handling process. I even had a (honest & polite) TSA agent warn me how fragile these things were who put a second (strong) ziptie on my luggage to secure it.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

CATSA Screener

Well from experience I'd estimate we get EDT hits on probably around 0.25% of the bags we trace. Can't really say if they're just false hits or are actually picking up traces of the chemicals they're looking for.



Sounds like he was trying to give you a break here.



Just a hand-written incident report that gets sent to HQ. Date, passenger info, chemical hit info and action taken. Very simple. Nobody will ever see it again. Maybe try a FOIA request for fun. They're probably too screwed up to actually find it.



A machine indicated you might be transporting explosives. The government has a responsibility to investigate that to make sure it's not true.

SDF_Traveler

Of the .25% bags you get a hit, how many of them actually contained explosives? I'm not talking about *traces*, but the real deal? *traces* of chemicals could be anything -- and when they won't tell you what chemical, it doesn't do any good.

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The TSA agent had the nerve to suggest that I might of handled a gun and then touched my luggage. When I said I didn't own a gun, he then said I might of touched fireworks and then my luggage (buzz, wrong again - I haven't messed with fireworks in years).</font>

Sounds like he was trying to give you a break here.

Despite him being generally polite (I get the impression he was just doing his job and didn't really care), it was rude & inconsiderate for him to even make an assumption like that. Despite popular belief, here in the states we do not all own firearms.

Personally, if anything was detected, I suspect it was something from the hairspray/gel after looking over the list of chemicals on there -- but without knowing what chemical it was, I have no idea.

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At the same time, I thought it was a crock of rubbish the TSA had to request my ID and document my name, ticket information, and other information into some government logbook. Anyone know what information "Big Brother" keeps in these logbooks & how long it is retained? I want to know what was written, where it is being kept, and/or who/where it is being sent to.</font>

Just a hand-written incident report that gets sent to HQ. Date, passenger info, chemical hit info and action taken. Very simple. Nobody will ever see it again. Maybe try a FOIA request for fun. They're probably too screwed up to actually find it.

Actually I'm already working on a FOIA request.

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Considering my bag was cleared, I did nothing wrong, and had nothing illegal on me, I thought it was none of his business who I was / where I was flying, let alone documenting it in a government logbook of some type.</font>

A machine indicated you might be transporting explosives. The government has a responsibility to investigate that to make sure it's not true.

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You use the word *might*. It was found I wasn't carrying any -- as such, the govt took the responsibility to see I didn't have it. Just shampoo, deoderant, hair spray/gel, general hygene products & clothing. The TSA did a full search of my suitcase and found it wasn't true. Yet they had to file a report and waste my time.

Thus, no need to have my personal information written down over a false alarm. Had I actually of had something illegal, fine, file a report or do whatever it is they do. Otherwise, leave me the f*ck alone and keep my name, address, and other personal information out of government logbooks. I respect privacy, it's too bad Big Brother doesn't.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

CATSA Screener

I had a big reply to this but I think maybe I'll just shut-up. None of this information is that hard to get but I don't want to be the schmoe prosecuted by some over-eager manager. Suffice to say that I've never seen actual explosives in a bag.

Suppose you actually did have explosives in your bag and we just happen to miss them on our re-inspection? The plane then blows up. It would be nice to have some paperwork on hand with which to begin the investigation. Everytime we have one of these EDT hits we open a legal investigation. It has to be documented. Back when we first got these machines we used to call the police in to do these investigations. I suppose you could decline to give your personal information. I have no idea what the consequences of that would be.

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

Spiff

TNT-like substances (those whose chemical compounds are similar to trinitrotoluene) are very different from nitrates (fireworks, gunpowder, etc.)Many Chemical Formulae and use here

Sounds like the TSA agent didn't know what to ask you if you'd been handling.

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

TakeScissorsAway

If , indeed your bag alarmed on TNT, and if indeed the TSA sup asked you about the gun, and the fireworks, I must agree with Spiff.

StarGoldmember

Could you, CATSA Screener, or any of the other TSA-types go into a little more detail here? Does anyone know what would happen if you refuse to give your info?

I know you all are just doing your job. Just curious, though. I can't imagine you'd be arrested, but would they prevent you from proceeding to the gates?

SGM

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

SDF_Traveler

Hi Fenito -

Thanks for your response. My initial messages may of been a bit rough on ya'all, but I do appreciate your comments.

Knowing the TSA, if I declined to give my personal information, I most likely wouldn't be getting to the gate -- and not traveling was not a choice of mine.

As Americans, we have a right to free and unrestricted travel here in the USA. While an airline can deny an individual passage on their aircraft (they are a private business), the government, IMHO, has no business saying whether or not I can travel.

However, privacy & how personal information is handled is my main concern. It would seem to me the airline has far much more personal information about me than the TSA (primarily for marketing purposes and to provide me with transportation services I pay for).

That being said, I trust the airlines, as with many other private companies I do business with, to protect my information. On the other hand, I have many concerns and don't as much trust the TSA when it comes to privacy and where such information will eventually end up. I work in private industry where personal information is protected & there are safeguards in place regarding disposal of information.

Will the TSA just toss the information in the trash, will it be properly shreded, will it be put in electronic format accessable by others or stored in a database somewhere (either now or in the future), will it end up in a box of paperwork in a basement/warehouse for a few decades, etc? My primary concern is one of privacy and of the few inquiries I've made, I can't get a straight answer. The TSA can't even give me a consistent answer on what happens to such information.

My main concern is what goes into the "log book", who sees it, and where it goes. Afterall, a little machine had just alleged I was carrying a "dangerous" substance. I was told it was a "TNT like substance", but the screener wasn't specific.

In regards to the specific incident -

When the TSA agent doing the EDT saw the print out (she had already seen the inside of my suitcase from swabbing), it was quite obvious she wasn't all that concerned. However, she had to follow operating procedure which required she contact the supervisor to officially "clear" me. She (the intial agent doing the screening) was quite friendly yet professional.

When I get a chance, I'll do some research in reference to a couple of the hair spray / gel type products in my luggage as they're full of chemicals (lets say I was surprised after reading the "ingredients" list) - but I suspect this is one of those things that may not happen anytime again soon and I may just never know.

FWIW, my luggage has since been swabbed at other airports including SDF again and I have had no further problems.



I don't expect a machine to determine a real threat vs a non-threat. The machine is tool to assist the screeners. I expect the TSA agent to conduct a full physical search of any bag which alarms to determine if a threat exists.

My suitcase was extremely light weight-wise (I travel light) and I had about 4 changes of clothing and a small bag containing items like shampoo, hair gel, deoderant, etc. My suitcase was searched and "cleared" because it was obvious no threat existed.

My problem is with the TSA procedure which requires that passenger identification information & ticket information is obtained and logged. As far as I'm concerned, my luggage was physically searched, no threat was found, and I should be free to go without providing personal information to the TSA.



The problem I have is with the procedure. I understand agents are required to follow the procedure.

If nothing dangerous is found after conducting a physical search, why should it be necessary to provide ID & ticket information to be logged? A trace detection of a chemical doesn't make anyone a threat. What matters is what, if anything, is found after a physical search is completed.

Best,

SDF_Traveler

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

TakeScissorsAway

SDF, As I've said before on this board, the TSA will eventually drown in it's own paperwork. We must document every thing, and then document that we've documented. IMHO, it's asinine. I agree with you 100%. If your bag is cleared, you should be on your way, no questions asked.

CATSA Screener

C'mon, you gotta have something for all these extraneous supervisors to do

Spiff

"As Americans, we have a right to free and unrestricted travel here in the USA. While an airline can deny an individual passage on their aircraft (they are a private business), the government, IMHO, has no business saying whether or not I can travel."

Amen!!!

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Fenito

all is lost

[This message has been edited by Fenito (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

CATSA Screener

TSAchick said it went into that huge warehouse where they stored the Ark at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark