Thanks Just Passing Thru for a well written, well thought out post. I just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate your contribution to this thread!

Ok JPT, lets see, where to begin. I guess it all comes down to your argument that your 4th amendment rights are being violated because your bag is being screened. I don't see it that way. Here is my reasoning....

The rights of society outweigh the rights of any single individual.

Now, I know you are thinking that the constitution protects the minority from the majority and thats true, but it does not place the rights of one single person above those of society as a whole.

Having every single bag screened is the governments effort to prevent explosives from being taken on an aircraft. Since every bag is being screened, no single group is being singled out. No profiling there.

Now in my state the highway patrol sets up "safety" stops and stops every car to check for insurance/license etc. They do catch their share of drunk drivers that way as well. Some people might think that is a violation of the constitution since there is no "probable cause" for stopping every car. However, the supreme court has ruled that since the safety of society as a whole outweighs the rights of a single individual, that is not the case.

So, since the safety of the flying public is of utmost importance to both the government and the industry, all bags will be screened. Doing so is not a violation of the 4th amendment as the supreme court has ruled that it is not "unreasonable" to check for explosives within checked baggage.

The founding fathers were smart to put the word "unreasonable" in the 4th amendment, it allows for so much to be done while still affording much protection.

As for theft, that is another matter and I understand that the TSA looks at that on a case by case basis. I do not lock my bags, never did before so I have no reason to now. Nothing has ever been taken from my bags even though I am starting to collect the TSA notices.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "ACES II, coming to an airliner near you."

I think my rights are being violated because:

1. the constitution guarantees me protection against search without probable cause or warrant by the government. Since it is government people searching bags, that to me is against the constitution.

2. they are not just searching my bags for explosives. They are reporting whatever they find (e.g. "illegal" drugs) to law enforcement people who will then duly arrest me. If they were only screening for explosives, and were ignoring everything else, that would be a more credible case and much more likely to past muster.

3. they are not using the least invasive means to search. They are searching while people aren't there.

I disagree with you there. Warrants are only needed when searching your home or car. If you think the process is slow now, imagine how slow it would be if a warrant would be required to screen a bag.

If you saw your neighbor loading cocaine into the trunk of his car, would you not alert the authorities? I sure would. If the screeners do find something illegal in a checked bag, I would hope they would alert someone.

At my local airport they found a guy who had about a half dozen handguns in his bag undeclared. As it turned out, several of them had been used in local bank robberies. Evidently the guy was clearing out of the area because the police were getting too close for his comfort. So by your reasoning they should have just let the guy go and not say anything. If they did that, flying would be a real circus, not like it isn't already.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "When the going gets tough, the tough turn to ACES II,"

I very strongly agree. I wish I had seen it earlier.

Bruce

I now have over a dozen TSA "We rifled through your belongings" notices and exactly ZERO tamper-evident seals.

The TSA is the new prototype for a useless government agency.

Write to your congressmen and complain about the TSA's procedures. Just be aware of who you are dealing with when you do...

29 have been accused of spousal abuse

7 have been arrested for fraud

19 have been accused of writing bad checks

117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses

3 have done time for assault

71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit

14 have been arrested on drug-related charges

8 have been arrested for shoplifting

21 are currently defendants in lawsuits

84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year

Can you guess which organization this is?

Give up yet?

It's the 535 members of the United States Congress.

The same group of Idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.

IMHO, it appears from these stats that the members of congress probably mirror the general US population as a whole. That being the case, what's your point??

Nope. My issue is the TSA requiring that I leave it unlocked. I have no problem with you running my bag through any scanning device, or even testing it for explosive residue. I have no problem with you rifling through it, so long as I am present. What I have a problem with is the requirement that I leave my personal effects unsecured and in the government's possession, but without a government guarantee that I will receive all of my things back, unstolen and undamaged. That is a violation of my Fourth Amendment rights. Period.

Horsesh*t.

No, I'm not. I'm thinking that the Constitution protects the people from the excesses of government. You appear to think that our government cannot commit excesses. Is that a fair assessment of your position?

Solipsism. You cannot violate the rights of all people by arguing that it's all right to violate the rights of one.

I haven't objected to screening; quite the contrary -- I welcome it. What I object to is the TSA's requirement that I leave my possessions unsecured, in their possession, and without any guarantee that I will ever see them again. If you want to go through my bag, you need to have me present. Otherwise, you and your employer stand in violation of the Constitution that you claim to have defended.

Irrelevant. Screening is not the issue, and profiling isn't either. Would you please stay on the point?

Depending on how and why this is done, it's entirely possible that what your state is doing is unconstitutional.

I do not know all the circumstances surrounding what your state does, but it certainly sounds possible that they're violating the Constitution.

You'll need to cite that case, Counselor. Can you do so? In any event, it's specious legal logic. "It's all right to violate one person's rights, so long as we violate everyone's rights in the same way."

Furthermore, the rights of our government are spelled out in the Constitution. Overstepping them isn't an option.

One, what has "the industry" got to do with this? I don't believe that industries have Constitutional rights.

Two, I'm not arguing against screening. I am arguing against the TSA requiring me to leave my bag unlocked and not guaranteeing the safety or return of my possessions. Can you not read that?

Screening is NOT the issue. The TSA's failure to guarantee the safety and security of our possessions IS. THAT is the Fourth Amendment violation here.

I don't think you're being willfully obtuse, but you do need to recognize the difference between screening (to which I have no objection, so long as I can be present) and requiring pax to leave their bags unlocked and unsecured (and giving yourselves exemption from responsibility). It is impossible to take the TSA seriously if they can't even take responsibility for their failure to guarantee our Fourth Amendment rights.

Yes, they were, and you're right that much could be done. For example, you could search my bag while I am present, and then lock it in front of me and send it on its way. That would guarantee my Fourth Amendment rights while still affording the protection you speak of. Obviously, given previous TSA comments on this thread, convenience also trumps Constitutional rights.

Theft is much of the matter, and you appear to have missed that completely. Theft is the risked result of complying with the TSA's leave-it-unlocked rule. Don't you get it? People aren't as upset about inspections as they are about having to leave their personal items unsecured, especially when the TSA says "if it gets lost or broken, it's not our problem."

That doesn't inspire public confidence in your organization.

And does what? Besides, why bother? The TSA has already exempted itself from responsibility.

Well, good for you. Not everybody agrees with you.

People are more interested in the security of their luggage now because a government agency is going through their bags.

You may have read about that in the news. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

At any rate, the situation is different now, because it is known up front that someone may go through your things. If you're going to search my things without me present, and you're not going to take responsibility for something getting broken or stolen, then you -- and your employer -- have violated the Constitution. You can't explain it away.

Nobody says you can't perform searches. The issue is your failure, as a government agency, to guarantee the security of the possessions under your control.

My bag has been searched at least three times in recent months, but I've never received one of these TSA love notes. You're making me jealous. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

If you hold this opinion of Congress, can you really be surprised at the negative opinion so many of us have of the TSA?

You object (quite rightly, in many cases) to their collective lack of character, despite their authority over you.

Is it any wonder that we pax object to the collective lack of responsibility shown by your organization's management?

Sauce for the gander, you see.

JPT, I do not work for the TSA, I work for Lockheed building Advanced Concept Ejection System 2 (ACES II) ejection seats. I do not agree with everything that the TSA does, I just do not think that the 4th amendment is being broken by screening of my or anyone elses bags whether they are present or not. If they were doing so without anyones knowledge, then I would agree with you. Everyone knows up front that they are, so it is not "unreasonable" to accept that they are. From what I have seen and read, most of the larger airports have the CTX machines in place and those things do everything (sniffing, x-ray, and organic search {C-4, SYMTEX being organic}) without anyone opening the bag. I have seen plenty of people watch while their bags are being searched at my local airport and seen the TSA guys lock their bags back for them. I guess things are different at other airports. Also from what I have seen, the TSA guys are always under a lot of scrutiny (cameras and such) so I would wonder when they would have a chance to steal anything since they screen and then turn the bags immediately over to the airline.

Now I also have to ask, that since the TSA just took over the duties of the previos private screeners, did you rail against them in the same way or have you just reserved that for anything government related? They were checking bags before 1/1/03 manually. Much more of a chance of something being stolen then due to a lack of oversight. I watched them go through my bag with a fine tooth comb once. At least the TSA does not always open my bag, they can screen it on the outside and have done so several times. The previous screeners had to open every bag they screened.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "When you are having a bad day, you can depend on ACES II."

You just don't get it, do you? Who said anything about TSA stealing my stuff? TSA requires my bag to travel unlocked. For each extra airport at which the bag gets transfered, the risk for theft increases. I don't think TSA will guard my bag at each airport, especially not outside USA.

No, I get what you are saying, I just don't see where you feel that the TSA is responsible for your belongings if they are stolen, locked or not. Once they are turned over to the airline, TSA has no more control over them. Any airline employee could steal your entire bag and the TSA would get the blame. Who was responsible for that before TSA started screening bags on 1/1/03? Were the private screeners responsible for all thefts? Locks will not stop anyone from getting into your bag and stealing something. By the reasoning here, if you do lock your bag, it goes through security, is NOT opened by the TSA, but someone gets into it anyway and steals something, the TSA is still responsible? I certainly hope that is not what I am reading here, but it does sound like it.

If someone breaks into my car and steals something, do I hold the mall/store I was parked at responsible? No company/organization holds themselves responsible for loss of personal property and posts that everywhere. Granted, they don't require you to keep your car unlocked, but the TSA only requests that you not lock your bag, they cannot keep you from doing so from what I have read.

ACES II, The number one ejection seat in service in the world today. "When you need peace of mind, you can count on ACES II."

Edited for spelling.

[This message has been edited by ACES II (edited 02-13-2003).]

That's not quite the right analogy. The situation we face when we fly is more akin to the government telling you that if you want to go to the grocery store, you need to leave your car unlocked in the parking lot just in case they need to search it while you're not around, and that they aren't responsible if something is stolen. Who would you hold responsible if something were stolen from your car, or if you car were stolen outright? Certainly you wouldn't just shrug your shoulders and say, "well, it's for security."

I think this is why many of us are rankled by this policy. As I posted earlier in this thread, I don't really believe that locking my luggage will keep out a determined and experienced thief. I do believe that it will provide some form of deterrent and slow the thief down. I've seen the specials where car thieves break into cars quickly and easily, but that doesn't stop me from locking my car, and I think if I did leave it unlocked "because it won't REALLY stop thieves" the police would laugh at me and tell me that I invited criminal activity by doing so. I seriously doubt that you leave your car unlocked under the same premise. Why should we prevented from taking simple precautions against theft?

The TSA notices at the ticket counters clearly state that luggage is NOT to be locked. This policy is MORONIC.

The fact that a persons bag is searched without them being present is MORONIC.

The fact that the TSA tells you not to lock your lugagge, but takes no responsibility for lost/stolen items is MORONIC.

I see a trend between TSA policy and the term MORONIC. Typical government BS.

JPT,

I have over a dozen ot the TSA "We violated your rights" notices. You want some?