Man dies at JFK after security delays EMTs
Jul 18, 2013, 10:47 am
#32
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While the delay in getting in makes for a good story, if the times reported by the post are accurate, and the EMT's were unable to do what was needed for the victim (probably ALS), and it took the paramedics 40 minutes to get there, he probably never had a chance, locked doors or not.
Jul 18, 2013, 11:23 am
#33
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North of DFW
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PPPPPPP comes to mind.
This reporter is a blooming idiot, and doesnt know squat and it shows.
An AED is not a magic cure all like they show on TV, if the AED analyses a rhythm and it is not one it will shock (V Tach w/o pulse, V-Fib) you cant force a shock that requires a full Cardiac monitor with Defibrillator and that is not a EMT Basic skill. Then if someone arrests from a heart attack it may have been a widow maker (IE walking talking one min ... Dead the next) or sudden cardiac death.
Not all units have transport capability if they are in a squad/rescue car. Some airports dont have onsite ambulances they use the local city.
Card readers that dont work, means doors get beat on for 30 seconds. Then I call Dispatch and tell them Im forcing entry, that puts a fire under a few peoples butts to get the correct people there to open the door ASAP (Which has happened at DFW - as a big ambulance with lights and sirens going they couldnt buy a clue) as my dispatch knows I will break a door down or go through a wall to gain entry.
This reporter is a blooming idiot, and doesnt know squat and it shows.
An AED is not a magic cure all like they show on TV, if the AED analyses a rhythm and it is not one it will shock (V Tach w/o pulse, V-Fib) you cant force a shock that requires a full Cardiac monitor with Defibrillator and that is not a EMT Basic skill. Then if someone arrests from a heart attack it may have been a widow maker (IE walking talking one min ... Dead the next) or sudden cardiac death.
Not all units have transport capability if they are in a squad/rescue car. Some airports dont have onsite ambulances they use the local city.
Card readers that dont work, means doors get beat on for 30 seconds. Then I call Dispatch and tell them Im forcing entry, that puts a fire under a few peoples butts to get the correct people there to open the door ASAP (Which has happened at DFW - as a big ambulance with lights and sirens going they couldnt buy a clue) as my dispatch knows I will break a door down or go through a wall to gain entry.
Jul 18, 2013, 12:55 pm
#34
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 468
A couple of recent events in NY that this made me think of:
-NYC put in a new 911 system this year. They've had a couple of high profile incidents where the ambulance dispatch was delayed or appeared to never have been made. The politicians and contractor say it has been dispatcher errors. The dispatchers and union say the system failed caused the loss of the call or transferred incomplete data.
(http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1387685)
-We've had a heat wave this week. The current city council president/mayoral candidate had a presser on Tuesday where an intern passed out due to the heat. It took about 30 minutes for an ambulance to arrive which ended up being a volunteer ambulance service. The incident was used as ammo for her to blast FDNY for failing to adequately staff during heat waves. (http://gothamist.com/2013/07/16/quin...d_for_toda.php)
(http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1400008)
Not saying they're related to the JFK incident but the passing of 40 minutes made me think of these other recent incidents. Also, PANYNJ does have its own ambulances. I'm not an EMT so have no idea whether one was at JFK, what equipment was lacking, or why waiting on the FDNY ambulance was preferable to transporting the victim.
-NYC put in a new 911 system this year. They've had a couple of high profile incidents where the ambulance dispatch was delayed or appeared to never have been made. The politicians and contractor say it has been dispatcher errors. The dispatchers and union say the system failed caused the loss of the call or transferred incomplete data.
(http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1387685)
-We've had a heat wave this week. The current city council president/mayoral candidate had a presser on Tuesday where an intern passed out due to the heat. It took about 30 minutes for an ambulance to arrive which ended up being a volunteer ambulance service. The incident was used as ammo for her to blast FDNY for failing to adequately staff during heat waves. (http://gothamist.com/2013/07/16/quin...d_for_toda.php)
(http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1400008)
Not saying they're related to the JFK incident but the passing of 40 minutes made me think of these other recent incidents. Also, PANYNJ does have its own ambulances. I'm not an EMT so have no idea whether one was at JFK, what equipment was lacking, or why waiting on the FDNY ambulance was preferable to transporting the victim.
Last edited by ne52; Jul 18, 2013 at 1:03 pm Reason: added links
Jul 23, 2013, 1:54 am
#35
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
I wonder how many bistanders could have helped him but didn't dare because they were afraid the family would end up suing them if unsucesssful!
That is something that should really be adressed in the US. We have just done a 3 week trip to Alaska and the ery first day we arrived we were the first at an accident scene and we went ahead an did what we would do here is Europe. Ok granted we both have a bit more than your regular first aid training you do here for your drivers license. How ever we were very fustrated with onloookers who were simply to afraid to don a pair of gloves and press at compress onto a bleeding wound!
That is something that should really be adressed in the US. We have just done a 3 week trip to Alaska and the ery first day we arrived we were the first at an accident scene and we went ahead an did what we would do here is Europe. Ok granted we both have a bit more than your regular first aid training you do here for your drivers license. How ever we were very fustrated with onloookers who were simply to afraid to don a pair of gloves and press at compress onto a bleeding wound!
Jul 23, 2013, 6:57 am
#36
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 468
I wonder how many bistanders could have helped him but didn't dare because they were afraid the family would end up suing them if unsucesssful!
How ever we were very fustrated with onloookers who were simply to afraid to don a pair of gloves and press at compress onto a bleeding wound!
How ever we were very fustrated with onloookers who were simply to afraid to don a pair of gloves and press at compress onto a bleeding wound!
It's usually a lack of action out of panic, confusion, or belief that someone else has control of the situation. See "Bystander Effect" online.
One of the most effective things you can do as the responder is to give clear, direct, and specific orders to people. 99% of the time, they are willing to pitch in when told exactly what to do.
Of course, you may have to come down off your pedestal to do it.
Jul 23, 2013, 7:41 am
#37
Join Date: May 2007
Location: IAD
Posts: 2,060
-NYC put in a new 911 system this year. They've had a couple of high profile incidents where the ambulance dispatch was delayed or appeared to never have been made. The politicians and contractor say it has been dispatcher errors. The dispatchers and union say the system failed caused the loss of the call or transferred incomplete data.
(http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1387685)
(http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1387685)
1. Thanks for this link. I used to work for the 911 system vendor that FDNY and FDEMS uses, so I've been wondering what's going on. It seems that once you leave, it's hard to stay up to date with things. Also because of that connection, this perked my ears up.
2. Ouch, ouch and ouch. These systemic technology things tend to get muddled in the press, but I can clarify what's going on here in case anybody is interested. The new system by Intergraph mentioned in the article is used by the police department. Fire and EMS is still using a combination of Starfire (FD) and a very old macro CAD system developed by a company called PRC (now Northrop Grumman). This is a typical IT business case of what happens when you try to integrate a new system and an old, heavily customized system. There's nothing wrong with either system in isolation, but making them communicate reliably is an extreme challenge.
I should also say that 911 systems are designed so that there is ALWAYS a manual override - the dispatcher must always be able to do what is needed. This situation of losing data in transmission between systems should never happen. I would cast blame for this not on the system vendors, but more on the city authorities who get busier playing politics than seeing to their constituents' needs. A city this size should be operating on one system (they have built in redundancies) for police, fire and EMS to keep things "simple" and not risk these kinds of transmission issues. Politics like this are quite common at the state and local level, though. Police Chief wants X system but Fire Chief wants Y system. They never can agree, so they each get their own. And then leave it up to the vendors and IT support to make it work.
Jul 23, 2013, 8:54 am
#38
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
I assume only a few if any at all. Most states, including Alaska and New York, have long ago enacted Good Samaritan laws that waive liability for volunteers in situations like this. You're also assuming the family would pursue a civil action in this situation which is also rare... an unfortunate stereotype to foreigners of our otherwise overly litigious society.
It's usually a lack of action out of panic, confusion, or belief that someone else has control of the situation. See "Bystander Effect" online.
One of the most effective things you can do as the responder is to give clear, direct, and specific orders to people. 99% of the time, they are willing to pitch in when told exactly what to do.
Of course, you may have to come down off your pedestal to do it.
It's usually a lack of action out of panic, confusion, or belief that someone else has control of the situation. See "Bystander Effect" online.
One of the most effective things you can do as the responder is to give clear, direct, and specific orders to people. 99% of the time, they are willing to pitch in when told exactly what to do.
Of course, you may have to come down off your pedestal to do it.
Jul 23, 2013, 9:51 am
#39
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 468
Glad you were able to interact with one of our many idiots among the rest of the wildlife in Alaska.
Jul 23, 2013, 1:42 pm
#40
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North of DFW
Programs: AA PLT, HH Gold, TSA Disparager Gold, going for Platnium
Posts: 1,535
I wonder how many bistanders could have helped him but didn't dare because they were afraid the family would end up suing them if unsucesssful!
That is something that should really be adressed in the US. We have just done a 3 week trip to Alaska and the ery first day we arrived we were the first at an accident scene and we went ahead an did what we would do here is Europe. Ok granted we both have a bit more than your regular first aid training you do here for your drivers license. How ever we were very fustrated with onloookers who were simply to afraid to don a pair of gloves and press at compress onto a bleeding wound!
That is something that should really be adressed in the US. We have just done a 3 week trip to Alaska and the ery first day we arrived we were the first at an accident scene and we went ahead an did what we would do here is Europe. Ok granted we both have a bit more than your regular first aid training you do here for your drivers license. How ever we were very fustrated with onloookers who were simply to afraid to don a pair of gloves and press at compress onto a bleeding wound!
I assume only a few if any at all. Most states, including Alaska and New York, have long ago enacted Good Samaritan laws that waive liability for volunteers in situations like this. You're also assuming the family would pursue a civil action in this situation which is also rare... an unfortunate stereotype to foreigners of our otherwise overly litigious society.
It's usually a lack of action out of panic, confusion, or belief that someone else has control of the situation. See "Bystander Effect" online.
One of the most effective things you can do as the responder is to give clear, direct, and specific orders to people. 99% of the time, they are willing to pitch in when told exactly what to do.
Of course, you may have to come down off your pedestal to do it.
It's usually a lack of action out of panic, confusion, or belief that someone else has control of the situation. See "Bystander Effect" online.
One of the most effective things you can do as the responder is to give clear, direct, and specific orders to people. 99% of the time, they are willing to pitch in when told exactly what to do.
Of course, you may have to come down off your pedestal to do it.
Im a paramedic and have pulled up on a more then a few very nasty wrecks, and medicals and even though I do not have a duty to act (as under the law, not on duty ... I have no duty to stop and help). However there is a personal/moral factor that plays into things and why I stop. What I render is nothing more the basic first aid, assessment and if need be C-spine protection.
Now I have gone as far as to calling for the launch of medical helicopter as a good Samaritan. This is a rare exception as I was in area that I know the responding agencies, protocols, transport times and personnel on duty. I had already contacted them or their dispatch giving them my assessment of the situation and they trust my judgement. Outside of areas I'm familiar with I would to CYA things state Im a offduty paramedic and give my state license number along with making my recommendation for additional resources or aircraft to the calltaker/dispatcher I'm on the phone with but will wait till responders got on scene to make the call as there area... there call.
Your average civilian doing the same is going to have more trouble then they even wanted and likelihood of being liable for the transport bill is extremely high.
I have been sued for what I have done as a good Samaritan. Sadly in this day and age people don't want to face responsibility for there actions and go straight to litigation mode to avoid that responsibility. The courts do however quickly thin out these cases, and in most cases for plaintiffs to pay expenses and fees (in the rare case punitive damages as well) to those for wasting the courts time.
Jul 23, 2013, 4:57 pm
#41
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Good Samaritan laws cover everyone as long as you don't do anything grossly stupid.
1. Good Samaritan laws vary from state to state. In some states, they only cover you if you are formally trained/certified to administer aid. This is partially why I continue to maintain (and think everyone else should get) a basic lay responder certification. Also, such training will actually help you understand what to do in different situations.
2. In the US, anyone can sue anyone for just about anything. Good Samaritan laws do not prevent litigation from being initiated, but they are legal protection for the responder during the legal procedures that may follow.
I feel like there are also laws on the books in some locales that demand action from trained responders, and hold some liability against them if they fail to act. Sort of like a reverse Good Samaritan law...but this may be only for actual first responders and doctors?