Well, my pilot's licenses list citizenship, my passport card, my GE card, and I have a DoD/NATO ID and one cannot be an officer in the US uniformed services without being a citizen (not sure if DHS knows that) and NATO ID shows citizenship and I have a wallet sized birth cert that Texas issues for something like $10 IIRC plus my Italian ID card though that is probably not the citizenship they want.

Now, I'd show none of that to a CBP agent at an internal checkpoint mind you because I think they are rubbish, supreme court notwithstanding (seperate but equal anyone? they don't always get it right).

Most people probably do not have docs that do however.

That's pretty much what the border patrol has done -- large numbers were hired without background checks, with the result that approximately 2,000 have been arrested on criminal charges and there have been roughly 150 corruption cases in the Border Patrol in recent years.

In order to get these bad apples out on streets faster, their training academy was reduced from 20 weeks to 12, and the results have been particulary "impressive" if you like negatives.

Check out the videos in thread:

https://www.checkpointforums.org/for...ine-valley.78/

Americans should be able to travel freely WITHIN their own country without having to deal with these criminal thugs and their abuse. Unfortunately, I can travel a lot more freely and safer from such abuse elsewhere, e.g. Europe, Singapore, Australia, ..., than in my own country.

I applaud anyone who resists this tyranny as it happens rather than playing the role of compliant sheep who quickly forget the transgressions until the next incident, when they once again enable "sheep mode".

They've come close to that -- they deported an underage girl on her way to school at a San Diego trolley stop.

Sure, and if they fingerprint me, they can see my citizenship through GE. But most people don't have fingerprints in the system - and since they aren't looking for citizenship at the airport but merely identification, I'm not sure what the comparison is. Identification is a lot easier to prove than citizenship.

And unless you got it post 9/11 (2003 or so?), it doesn't prove anything - you declared citizenship on an 8710 and never had to prove it. Means nothing, although I suppose CBP doesn't know that.

And you're happy with that abuse? It's anathema to very essence of being an American.

I've literally spent years of my life overseas, traveling freely except for actual border crossings where the delays are almost always quick & perfunctory.

Only in Amerika (and perhaps a few backwater dictatorships where we don't vacation) today do we have to deal with this "Papieren, bitte!" nonsense.

~250,000 Amish and several million other US citizens would probably have to say, "no" to your question. Unless you expect everyone to carry ID cards at all times then you're simply setting up for CBP to be deporting everyone they think "looks foreign". CBP already screw up on a reasonably regular basis on this matter. Why make it easier for them to do that?

OK, let’s again try to convey accurate information. I don't have arrest or convictions numbers in my head but I did post a report full of those numbers up thread.

Border Patrol and OFO have had mass hiring's in the past. No one was hired without a background check. The practice that was used, which by the way I don't happen to agree with, was provisional clearances were given after basic computer database checks were done with negative derogatory information found. This allowed the candidate to be hired and begin training while the rest of the background was completed.

The Border Patrol academy was not shortened to 12 weeks from 20 weeks. The format of the academy was changed. The 20 weeks of training included various law training, firearms training, defensive tactics, physical pt, driving training, and Spanish language training. These classes were given in 2 to 4 hour blocks all through the academy.

The academy then changed the format and removed all the Spanish language training from the basic academy. Those candidates that could not test out of the Spanish language portion of the training had to stay for the Spanish language instruction. This Spanish language training comprised 40 work days of instruction. The basic academy comprises 58 work days of instruction. Put the two together and you are just under 20 weeks 19.6 to be exact.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/careers/c...bp_academy.xml

Border Patrol in particular and law enforcement in general are not any different than any other profession. There will be good practitioners of any profession and there will be bad practitioners of any profession. Most other professions do not have the public baiting them with the intention of videotaping the result. It would be interesting indeed to see what the results would be if this behavior was encountered in other professions

FB

Just for the record, CBP does know that. CBP is very familiar with pilot licenses as it is one of the documents that it is required to check during a private aircraft inspection and ramp inspections.

FB

Most other professions don't stomp on people's civil liberties and right to travel unimpeded.

Sorry, I missed this one. So you are saying CBP is aware that a pilot's license does not prove citizenship?

What is the point of checking them then? Besides harassment, of course.

I would suggest that before you make comments like that you do a little research. The public baits Law Enforcement on topics that we can all agree that the Law Enforcement officer should be aware of such a civil liberties and the right to travel unimpeded.

Let’s make sure that the analogies are at least correct. When I am talking about other professions not being videotaped and baited, I am talking about topics that those professions should be aware of. For example, in the medical field, I do not see video cameras being used to catch doctors or nurses in purposefully contrived situations making mistakes. Yet medical errors kill, maim, and otherwise hurt millions of people every year. That is just the medication errors that are not even touching wrong site surgeries, botched procedures, or infections do to staff mistakes. Yet, no public outcry, no video cameras. I detest the hyperbole that happens frequently here. However, those medical error numbers equate to two 737’s crashing every day for a year. Yet, no public outcry, no video cameras over the shoulders of nurses and doctors. Why? Because it is not exciting, it is not going to result in an argument or physical confrontation so in turn is not going to increase ratings or subscriptions.

When you say civil liberties, I agree the Law Enforcement officer should get it right. However, these are human beings who make mistakes that why when you are talking civil liberties kind of lawsuits (because that is the correct place to deal with such issues not roadside or in a checkpoint) there is a good faith measure that is used to account for human mistakes. If the officer is purposefully and personally, violating civil liberties I am right there with you in disciplining that officer either civilly or criminally but you and I don't make that determination the courts do.

When you say the right to travel unimpeded, I have to assume you are talking BP checkpoints and TSA checkpoints, correct me if I have made a wrong assumption. In that case, I don't believe the individual officer is the place to take that up with. The courts have decided that these practices are legal and constitutional. If you don't agree, the place to take that up with is your elected representative.

FB

That would because in order to fly that plane across an international boundary there is a Federal law that says you have to be in possession of a pilot’s license.

In order to operate that aircraft anywhere in the United States, there is a Federal law that says you must be in possession of a pilot’s license.

In addition, in order to be able to determine citizenship you must have at least a passing knowledge of not only the documents that you come into contact regularly that do prove citizenship you must also have a passing knowledge of documents that you come into contact regularly that do not prove citizenship.

You do realize that just the act of enforcing a law does not constitute harassment.

FB

The reason medicine is treated differently is because of how they react. They don't react to you criticizing them by tying you to a bed and fondling your genitals in retaliation. They don't react to a mistake by detaining you for an hour because you exercised your right to remain silent. And yes, I once asked a nurse why she was administering drugs without asking my name. Guess what? I wasn't arrested, and I even complained, it made me so uncomfortable. Who knows what action was taken but next time I saw her, she didn't screw up and she didn't retaliate. You can't say the same at a TSA checkpoint.

Look, it appears you like sheep, and that's fine. But in my OP, which seems to have been forgotten, I wanted to cooperate. I was a sheep back then. It still didn't matter. I was detained, harassed, and threatened. You go through that and tell me it wouldn't piss you off and make you less likely to cooperate in the future. And you're telling me they may have gotten it wrong?

As far as writing representatives, these are the same people who passed the Patriot Act, so you can see where their loyalties lie - and they aren't with the American people.

Sure it does, when it's not your job to check. Stick to immigration and customs when a person crossed a border and we'll be fine (and I have ZERO issues with CBP at airports on an incoming international flight, btw). Search my plane, ask for my passport, get my customs declaration but asking for a pilot's license is above and beyond (and yes, I realize I am required to show it - but just because it's a law doesn't make it right).

Most other professions don't have armed employees. Those that do have a responsibility to ensure their employees aren't of questionable character.

As far as being video/audio recorded just why does that bother any LEO if they aren't doing anything wrong? If you have nothing to hide I see no problem.