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Plato90s Jun 15, 2011 6:59 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 16568390)
A ticket is a contractual right to fly, and can be enforced, at law, as a contract. If he was not disruptive under a reasonable construction of the term, he was in compliance with the CoCs and the airline was in breach. No once can simply "void" a contract at their discretion -- that renders the contract illusory and unenforceable. Airline CoCs have a lot of conditions under which the airline can deny passage. It cannot, however, arbitrarily deny passage for reasons outside the express terms.

Sorry, missed this.

When a passenger is involuntarily removed from the flight by the airline's employee, the contract stipulated IDB compensation as well as a refund if the passenger is not rebooked on another flight. After that process, the ticket is no longer valid and the individual no longer has a valid contract.

Thus the contract was fulfilled in every particular - even if the passenger didn't make it on the plane.

IDB does not mean the airline just "void" a contract. It means the airline exercised its rights within the contract to void the passenger's passage on its plane.

Ellie M Jun 15, 2011 7:02 pm


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16568593)

The contract specifically allows boarding to be denied at the discretion of airline staff, even if that decision appears to be a "whim".

You are wrong. First, for the reasons PTravel stated regarding illusory contracts. Second, here's the actual Delta contract of carriage (pdf). It doesn't say they can refuse to transport passengers on a whim or at the discretion of airline staff. Refusal to transport must be reasonable.


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16568658)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...nts-plane.html

Take a look at this story just posted and show me where the "illusory consideration" is.

The terms of arlines' conditions of carriage has been challenged many times, and I have yet to hear of a single court claim "illusory consideration" and revoke the contract.

You should actually read the article that you linked to. The US Air contract of carriage specifically forbids "indecent exposure or inappropriate" attire. He was denied boarding because his pants were below his butt, "indecent exposure." The airline spokesperson justified the refusal to carry based on that clause of the contract of carriage.

Ord Liza Jun 15, 2011 7:32 pm


Originally Posted by Ellie M (Post 16568726)

The US Air contract of carriage specifically forbids "indecent exposure or inappropriate" attire. He was denied boarding because his pants were below his butt, "indecent exposure." The airline spokesperson justified the refusal to carry based on that clause of the contract of carriage.

Just because that was the stated reason, does not mean that it was the real or entire reason. What if, for example, a jury can be convinced that far more "inappropriately" dressed passengers are allowed by the airline to fly?

Ellie M Jun 15, 2011 7:53 pm


Originally Posted by Ord Liza (Post 16568853)
Just because that was the stated reason, does not mean that it was the real or entire reason. What if, for example, a jury can be convinced that far more "inappropriately" dressed passengers are allowed by the airline to fly?

If the passenger sues USAir for this, he could potentially win. I wasn't defending what the USAir employee did or stating that it was justified. I was commenting on Plato's assertion that the incident demonstrated that passengers could be denied boarding on an airline employee's whim and that the contract of carriage allows airlines to do whatever they want. The airline is (so far) defending this as pursuant to a specific clause in the contract of carriage.

Ord Liza Jun 15, 2011 8:11 pm


Originally Posted by Ellie M (Post 16568946)
I wasn't defending what the USAir employee did or stating that it was justified.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were. I quoted that part of your post merely to show the particular point I was addressing.

Plato90s Jun 15, 2011 8:48 pm


Originally Posted by Ellie M (Post 16568726)
You are wrong. First, for the reasons PTravel stated regarding illusory contracts. Second, here's the actual Delta contract of carriage (pdf). It doesn't say they can refuse to transport passengers on a whim or at the discretion of airline staff. Refusal to transport must be reasonable.

You are wrong.

Please point out for us where the CoC states such a requirement to be "reasonable".

Originally Posted by Ellie M (Post 16568726)
You should actually read the article that you linked to. The US Air contract of carriage specifically forbids "indecent exposure or inappropriate" attire. He was denied boarding because his pants were below his butt, "indecent exposure." The airline spokesperson justified the refusal to carry based on that clause of the contract of carriage.

You should read what PTravel is claiming.

The theory of "illusory consideration" is that if the passenger didn't read the contract and didn't understand it, then he can't be bound by it. If that was actually true instead of a legal fiction, then US Air couldn't enforce the dress code at all.

If you concede that US Air had the legal right via the condition of carriage to deny boarding to that person, then the whole idea of "illusory consideration" is already thrown out the window because you've bound the passenger to the contract.

Pesky Monkey Jun 15, 2011 8:51 pm


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16568368)
He may have, but he didn't get back on that flight.

The right to do something doesn't mean the person acting is free from consequences.

Nevertheless, it's a falsehood to believe that a ticket is somehow a guarantee of a "right" to fly. It's just a commercial transaction which the airline can void at its discretion.

Wearing a t-shirt is not "acting".

Plato90s Jun 15, 2011 9:10 pm


Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey (Post 16569218)
Wearing a t-shirt is not "acting".

I was referring to the airline employee.

JoeBas Jun 15, 2011 9:13 pm


Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey (Post 16569218)
Wearing a t-shirt is not "acting".

Tell that to Megan Fox.

PTravel Jun 15, 2011 9:50 pm


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16568658)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...nts-plane.html

Take a look at this story just posted and show me where the "illusory consideration" is.

The terms of arlines' conditions of carriage has been challenged many times, and I have yet to hear of a single court claim "illusory consideration" and revoke the contract.

One more time: Airlines cannot refuse passage "on a whim," as you claimed. This is Contracts 101. Don't believe me if you want, I'm not getting into an argument with you about it.

PTravel Jun 15, 2011 9:51 pm


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16569209)
The theory of "illusory consideration" is that if the passenger didn't read the contract and didn't understand it, then he can't be bound by it..

See, you didn't look up the meaning of illusory consideration as I suggested. You're completely wrong about what it is.

Plato90s Jun 15, 2011 10:06 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 16569463)
One more time: Airlines cannot refuse passage "on a whim," as you claimed. This is Contracts 101. Don't believe me if you want, I'm not getting into an argument with you about it.

The contract specifically allows boarding to be denied at the discretion of airline staff, even if that decision appears to be a "whim".

Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 16569467)
See, you didn't look up the meaning of illusory consideration as I suggested. You're completely wrong about what it is.

Oh, you're trying to claim this interpretation?

"a promise in the contract which turns out not to be a promise at all"

That is not true at all. The CoC states clearly that the passenger will either be transported or, if involuntarily denied boarding, be given a full refund plus IDB compensation.

It would be quite an amusing claim to suggest that the "promise" was solely limited to transportation and provided no option for denying carriage.

PTravel Jun 16, 2011 12:17 am


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16569530)
The contract specifically allows boarding to be denied at the discretion of airline staff, even if that decision appears to be a "whim".

And "discretion" will have implied into "commercially reasonable."


Oh, you're trying to claim this interpretation?

"a promise in the contract which turns out not to be a promise at all"
I'm not "trying to claim" anything. It is illusory consideration when the consideration for the contract may be withheld for no reason. Contracts must be supported by consideration, usually stated as, "a promise for a promise." If the promissor can withhold performance on a whim, there is no consideration.

As I said, this is Contracts 101. I have no idea why you think this is something you can dispute.


That is not true at all. The CoC states clearly that the passenger will either be transported or, if involuntarily denied boarding, be given a full refund plus IDB compensation.
And if the reason for the IDB is a whim, THAT is illusory consideration.


It would be quite an amusing claim to suggest that the "promise" was solely limited to transportation and provided no option for denying carriage.
It's quite amusing to see a non-lawyer try, and fail, to understand something that every law student learns in the first day of Contracts class.

Ari Jun 16, 2011 2:09 am


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16568593)
That is because while IDB can be done at discretion, it violates the law if that discretion is based on racism.

That was what Raed Jarrar alleged and it's why he had standing to bring a case. He wasn't suing because of a breach of the conditions of carriage - he was suing on the basis that a common carrier can't discriminate on race.You are wrong.

I am quite aware of the grounds under which the Jarrar suit was brought and in no way was I likening them to this situation. Rather, I was simply responding posts about that particular incident including your gratuitous post:


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16568593)
He may have, but he didn't get back on that flight.

The right to do something doesn't mean the person acting is free from consequences.

If you were at all familiar with the facts of that case, you'd know that he did fly on the flight he had ticketed-- JetBlue purchased a shirt from a gift shop for him to wear on the flight so his 'offensive' message was not shown. Furthermore, he was never 'on' the flight as this all took place in the gate area before he boarded.


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16568658)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...nts-plane.html

Take a look at this story just posted and show me where the "illusory consideration" is.

The terms of arlines' conditions of carriage has been challenged many times, and I have yet to hear of a single court claim "illusory consideration" and revoke the contract.

Considering US's CoC includes a section about dress, that doesn't seem like a whim at all.

Ellie M Jun 16, 2011 5:58 am


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16569209)

Please point out for us where the CoC states such a requirement to be "reasonable".
.

It doesn't need to say it. Carrying out the contract in good faith is assumed in any contract's terms. That is basic contract law.

But on Pg. 11 the contract actually does say it. Probably because Delta wants the contract to actually be valid. The paragraph on "passenger's conduct or condition" states that Delta may refuse to transport when "reasonably necessary" for comfort or safety and then provides a list of reasons why it might be "reasonably necessary."


Originally Posted by Plato90s (Post 16569209)

The theory of "illusory consideration" is that if the passenger didn't read the contract and didn't understand it, then he can't be bound by it. If that was actually true instead of a legal fiction, then US Air couldn't enforce the dress code at all.

:confused: That is not what illusory consideration means.


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