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Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 16568390)
A ticket is a contractual right to fly, and can be enforced, at law, as a contract. If he was not disruptive under a reasonable construction of the term, he was in compliance with the CoCs and the airline was in breach. No once can simply "void" a contract at their discretion -- that renders the contract illusory and unenforceable. Airline CoCs have a lot of conditions under which the airline can deny passage. It cannot, however, arbitrarily deny passage for reasons outside the express terms.
When a passenger is involuntarily removed from the flight by the airline's employee, the contract stipulated IDB compensation as well as a refund if the passenger is not rebooked on another flight. After that process, the ticket is no longer valid and the individual no longer has a valid contract. Thus the contract was fulfilled in every particular - even if the passenger didn't make it on the plane. IDB does not mean the airline just "void" a contract. It means the airline exercised its rights within the contract to void the passenger's passage on its plane. |
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16568593)
The contract specifically allows boarding to be denied at the discretion of airline staff, even if that decision appears to be a "whim".
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16568658)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...nts-plane.html
Take a look at this story just posted and show me where the "illusory consideration" is. The terms of arlines' conditions of carriage has been challenged many times, and I have yet to hear of a single court claim "illusory consideration" and revoke the contract. |
Originally Posted by Ellie M
(Post 16568726)
The US Air contract of carriage specifically forbids "indecent exposure or inappropriate" attire. He was denied boarding because his pants were below his butt, "indecent exposure." The airline spokesperson justified the refusal to carry based on that clause of the contract of carriage. |
Originally Posted by Ord Liza
(Post 16568853)
Just because that was the stated reason, does not mean that it was the real or entire reason. What if, for example, a jury can be convinced that far more "inappropriately" dressed passengers are allowed by the airline to fly?
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Originally Posted by Ellie M
(Post 16568946)
I wasn't defending what the USAir employee did or stating that it was justified.
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Originally Posted by Ellie M
(Post 16568726)
You are wrong. First, for the reasons PTravel stated regarding illusory contracts. Second, here's the actual Delta contract of carriage (pdf). It doesn't say they can refuse to transport passengers on a whim or at the discretion of airline staff. Refusal to transport must be reasonable.
Please point out for us where the CoC states such a requirement to be "reasonable".
Originally Posted by Ellie M
(Post 16568726)
You should actually read the article that you linked to. The US Air contract of carriage specifically forbids "indecent exposure or inappropriate" attire. He was denied boarding because his pants were below his butt, "indecent exposure." The airline spokesperson justified the refusal to carry based on that clause of the contract of carriage.
The theory of "illusory consideration" is that if the passenger didn't read the contract and didn't understand it, then he can't be bound by it. If that was actually true instead of a legal fiction, then US Air couldn't enforce the dress code at all. If you concede that US Air had the legal right via the condition of carriage to deny boarding to that person, then the whole idea of "illusory consideration" is already thrown out the window because you've bound the passenger to the contract. |
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16568368)
He may have, but he didn't get back on that flight.
The right to do something doesn't mean the person acting is free from consequences. Nevertheless, it's a falsehood to believe that a ticket is somehow a guarantee of a "right" to fly. It's just a commercial transaction which the airline can void at its discretion. |
Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey
(Post 16569218)
Wearing a t-shirt is not "acting".
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Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey
(Post 16569218)
Wearing a t-shirt is not "acting".
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Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16568658)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...nts-plane.html
Take a look at this story just posted and show me where the "illusory consideration" is. The terms of arlines' conditions of carriage has been challenged many times, and I have yet to hear of a single court claim "illusory consideration" and revoke the contract. |
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16569209)
The theory of "illusory consideration" is that if the passenger didn't read the contract and didn't understand it, then he can't be bound by it..
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Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 16569463)
One more time: Airlines cannot refuse passage "on a whim," as you claimed. This is Contracts 101. Don't believe me if you want, I'm not getting into an argument with you about it.
The contract specifically allows boarding to be denied at the discretion of airline staff, even if that decision appears to be a "whim".
Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 16569467)
See, you didn't look up the meaning of illusory consideration as I suggested. You're completely wrong about what it is.
"a promise in the contract which turns out not to be a promise at all" That is not true at all. The CoC states clearly that the passenger will either be transported or, if involuntarily denied boarding, be given a full refund plus IDB compensation. It would be quite an amusing claim to suggest that the "promise" was solely limited to transportation and provided no option for denying carriage. |
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16569530)
The contract specifically allows boarding to be denied at the discretion of airline staff, even if that decision appears to be a "whim". Oh, you're trying to claim this interpretation? "a promise in the contract which turns out not to be a promise at all" As I said, this is Contracts 101. I have no idea why you think this is something you can dispute. That is not true at all. The CoC states clearly that the passenger will either be transported or, if involuntarily denied boarding, be given a full refund plus IDB compensation. It would be quite an amusing claim to suggest that the "promise" was solely limited to transportation and provided no option for denying carriage. |
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16568593)
That is because while IDB can be done at discretion, it violates the law if that discretion is based on racism.
That was what Raed Jarrar alleged and it's why he had standing to bring a case. He wasn't suing because of a breach of the conditions of carriage - he was suing on the basis that a common carrier can't discriminate on race.You are wrong.
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16568593)
He may have, but he didn't get back on that flight.
The right to do something doesn't mean the person acting is free from consequences.
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16568658)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...nts-plane.html
Take a look at this story just posted and show me where the "illusory consideration" is. The terms of arlines' conditions of carriage has been challenged many times, and I have yet to hear of a single court claim "illusory consideration" and revoke the contract. |
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16569209)
Please point out for us where the CoC states such a requirement to be "reasonable". . But on Pg. 11 the contract actually does say it. Probably because Delta wants the contract to actually be valid. The paragraph on "passenger's conduct or condition" states that Delta may refuse to transport when "reasonably necessary" for comfort or safety and then provides a list of reasons why it might be "reasonably necessary."
Originally Posted by Plato90s
(Post 16569209)
The theory of "illusory consideration" is that if the passenger didn't read the contract and didn't understand it, then he can't be bound by it. If that was actually true instead of a legal fiction, then US Air couldn't enforce the dress code at all. |
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