Touching face and hair -- what is point?

Old Feb 13, 11, 5:38 pm
  #106  
 
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Originally Posted by Tom M. View Post
Your "not certain"? wow.

why does being "not certain" border on SSI?


Is it a prohibited item?


Anything that can be put in a collar, can be concealed in a butt crack. Why doesn't the TSA clear butt cracks?


That is exactly what it implies
Because the answer is SSI, and I can't disclose SSI.

In weapon format it is.

AIT gives the ability to do just that. Thanks for making a point in favor of AIT for me.

Ok, I don't trust everyone. What point are you making here? That I have to trust everyone that comes into the airport?
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Old Feb 13, 11, 5:44 pm
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Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
Because the answer is SSI, and I can't disclose SSI.?
So why did you say you were "not certain" when you are?

Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
In weapon format it is.
What is "weapon format"? When it is shaped like a knife?


Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
AIT gives the ability to do just that. Thanks for making a point in favor of AIT for me.
AIT's can see between folds of skin, such as a but crack?

Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
What point are you making here? That I have to trust everyone that comes into the airport?
No you don't, and obviously you do not, despite saying "is not implying we do not trust folks" . That was my point.
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Old Feb 13, 11, 5:49 pm
  #108  
 
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Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
Because the answer is SSI, and I can't disclose SSI.
You did disclose it by the answer you gave because I pretty much figured out what the answer was by you trying to beat around the bush with a non answer. If the answer is SSI. Then clearly the answer is yes that search is done whether the AIT/NOS/WBI sees something or not.. So it is no longer a secret. Some passengers are selected to get their hair and collars searched regardless of the AIT/NOS/WBI... WTMD... or an OPT OUT. That is one of those unpredictable things TSA Agents are allowed to do to the passengers to keep the terrorist guessing about how they are going to be searched so they won't attempt anything.

Like that really will work if a terrorist is really determined to do something.

Last edited by Lara21; Feb 13, 11 at 6:09 pm
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Old Feb 13, 11, 5:59 pm
  #109  
 
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Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much View Post
I remember back in my college and post-college single adult days being with girlfriends, many of whom were completely freaked out by guys who grabbed or pulled their hair during "consenting adult" activities. This fear & trauma was something I never realized was an issue. I used the term "freaked out," but this was obviously a real source of trauma. Human females, especially Mrs Flies, are way too precious to me to ever assert that level of dominance. But, it's business-as-usual at America's airports.

Hair pulling and hair groping obviously put a woman in an extremely vulnerable position. Adding on the "power/dominance" positioning of a TSA clerk, I can only imagine the trauma women go through having their hair violated in exchange for being allowed to board a commercial airliner.
Exactly...why is it that most men here can understand this and a government agency that is "apparently" working with all kinds of groups representing people with disabilities, women, religious groups, etc cannot figure this out.

Forced touching of the hair, face and bare skin is invasive, disgusting, creepy, power-tripping behaviour. If someone doesn't understand that, they have no understanding of humans in general. Intimate touch, under duress, is assault, plain and simple. And yes, touching someone's hair and face is intimate. What about those with sensory issues? I have a nephew who is autistic. This simply would not fly (no pun intended) with him.

To a previous poster who stated he was "ok with hair touching" based on an explanation from a TSO, good for you. I'm not. Let them touch your hair and leave mine alone.

Last edited by Mimi111; Feb 13, 11 at 6:11 pm
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Old Feb 13, 11, 5:59 pm
  #110  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog

Letting a known threat matrix go unscreened because it could be offensive to someone is poor security to begin with.
So letting a known threat matrix go unscreened is poor security.

Then please explain how TSA with all its wisdom allows body cavity weapons to go unscreened. A body cavity weapon has been deployed exactly as many times as a shoe bomb and an underwear bomb.

Are you suggesting that TSA is guilty of having poor security practices?
Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
I have admitted the system is not perfect, and can't screen for every threat. However, the collar is a simple part of the pat down that takes about 10 seconds to do.
What you said and I don't think you can deny is that by not searching for known threat vectors such as a body cavity weapon TSA is using "poor security? practices

Last edited by Boggie Dog; Feb 13, 11 at 6:10 pm
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Old Feb 13, 11, 5:59 pm
  #111  
 
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Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
Because the answer is SSI, and I can't disclose SSI.

In weapon format it is.

AIT gives the ability to do just that. Thanks for making a point in favor of AIT for me.

Ok, I don't trust everyone. What point are you making here? That I have to trust everyone that comes into the airport?
...unless you have something "wrong" with you that precludes AIT as an option. I don't even need to repeat this, since I've been repeating it over and over and over since I've gotten here.

Or unless you have some sort of religious proscription against being seen naked by persons of another sex, or or or or or. Most of the other stuff doesn't apply to me. I don't really care if some yahoo sees my crotch. But, um, uh, since the TSA still has no plan, no policy, no idea better than "ridicule the outlier and let people take their stuff...and maybe we'll herd you to a private room with no camera and no witness if you're traveling alone", we have a bit of a problem.
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Old Feb 13, 11, 6:07 pm
  #112  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
I am not certain, and that borders on the dreaded SSI region, so I hate to say it, but I can't (and if I could, I wouldn't) answer that one.



1. Not always, depends on how much is there.
2. Nope.
3. Not always.
4. Carbon fiber can be a threat to the passengers. Only after they are screened by the x-ray.
5. It is simply clearing the collar of threats.
6. Applying the rules as equally as possible (I know, there are exeptions, and I dislike them, but I don't make the rules) is not implying we do not trust folks, it is merely establishing a baseline of security.



I HATE that phrase more than you could ever imagine. It is nothing but a phrase that escalates a minor miscommunication into a full blown crap sandwich. If I were Administrator, the first rule I would make would be to ban that from being used in any checkpoint (or anywhere TSA is working) under penalty of being fired immediately. If passengers are simply talking or even (gasp) joking around with us, there is no reason to get worked up. Sadly, that does not seem to be a consensus.

If that is your hair, I have no reason to pat it down, it can be cleared visually. If you look just like Ellen Barkin, why are you here typing with us and not in movies?


I can get enough C-4 in a collar to kill a handful, injure more and if I were able to put it at a critical juncture, maybe cause some pretty bad damage - but not a critical or catastrophic failure. Too many variables to give a definite, but I doubt I could bring it down or blow it completely out of the air.

Yes you can bring a set of extra guitar strings, and they make nice garrotes if you have a couple of thick wooden pegs (to prevent you from hurting your hands in the process).
So eyecue's claim that not enough explosive to bring down a plane can be inserted in a human body might not be accurate.

I don't need wooden pegs, a couple of Bic stick pens will do quiet well and also make a reasonable thrusting weapon.

The point is that TSA does allow very useful items that also make excellent weapons and for little reason bans others.

Security Theater!
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Old Feb 13, 11, 11:28 pm
  #113  
 
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Regarding the "DY...to fly?"
Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post


I HATE that phrase more than you could ever imagine. It is nothing but a phrase that escalates a minor miscommunication into a full blown crap sandwich. If I were Administrator, the first rule I would make would be to ban that from being used in any checkpoint (or anywhere TSA is working) under penalty of being fired immediately. If passengers are simply talking or even (gasp) joking around with us, there is no reason to get worked up. Sadly, that does not seem to be a consensus.
Thank you. The connotative threat in using that phrase does not help anyone's credibility or back up any authoritative air, rather it needlessly escalates and taunts.
And thank you for not using that phrase yourself.

Edit: forgot some punctuation.
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Old Feb 13, 11, 11:41 pm
  #114  
 
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Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much View Post
I remember back in my college and post-college single adult days being with girlfriends, many of whom were completely freaked out by guys who grabbed or pulled their hair during "consenting adult" activities. This fear & trauma was something I never realized was an issue. I used the term "freaked out," but this was obviously a real source of trauma. Human females, especially Mrs Flies, are way too precious to me to ever assert that level of dominance. But, it's business-as-usual at America's airports.

Hair pulling and hair groping obviously put a woman in an extremely vulnerable position. Adding on the "power/dominance" positioning of a TSA clerk, I can only imagine the trauma women go through having their hair violated in exchange for being allowed to board a commercial airliner.
^^^^
Anyone who's been married awhile understands a little bit how physically sensitive hair is to their woman, not to mention the psychological and privacy aspects to it. The women undergoing this hair groping are being degraded and dominated over, they know it, they show it in their faces during the goping, and yet they comply either because they are afraid, thinking they must, or because they know they will not be able to fly otherwise.

The TSA points to the mere fact of compliance as proof that what they do is not upsetting or damaging to the passengers. Yet, how can you exert so complete a control over someone's body as the TSA does, physically and thoroughly violating their privacy without causing damage? This is nothing but force, pure and simple. How can TSA agents who are married and have children be reconciled to this? The fact that they have no problem with it shows how desensitized they have become to normal human feelings.

Last edited by nachtnebel; Feb 13, 11 at 11:50 pm Reason: shortened to the point
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Old Feb 14, 11, 12:14 am
  #115  
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Dominance issues notwithstanding, my wife spends a minimum of 30 minutes daily (often more) setting & curling her hair. The last thing she wants or needs is some clerk's grubby hands running through it.
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Old Feb 14, 11, 6:13 am
  #116  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
What you said and I don't think you can deny is that by not searching for known threat vectors such as a body cavity weapon TSA is using "poor security? practices
That's exactly what he said.
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Old Feb 14, 11, 6:42 am
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Originally Posted by nachtnebel View Post
^^^^
Anyone who's been married awhile understands a little bit how physically sensitive hair is to their woman, not to mention the psychological and privacy aspects to it. The women undergoing this hair groping are being degraded and dominated over, they know it, they show it in their faces during the goping, and yet they comply either because they are afraid, thinking they must, or because they know they will not be able to fly otherwise.

The TSA points to the mere fact of compliance as proof that what they do is not upsetting or damaging to the passengers. Yet, how can you exert so complete a control over someone's body as the TSA does, physically and thoroughly violating their privacy without causing damage? This is nothing but force, pure and simple. How can TSA agents who are married and have children be reconciled to this? The fact that they have no problem with it shows how desensitized they have become to normal human feelings.

IMHO this constitutes a degradation of our quality of life and a serious attack on our societal norms that is bound to have severe consequences.
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Old Feb 14, 11, 7:22 am
  #118  
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Originally Posted by ElizabethConley View Post
IMHO this constitutes a degradation of our quality of life and a serious attack on our societal norms that is bound to have severe consequences.
Doesn't it seem that TSA is focused on destroying those exact things?
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Old Feb 14, 11, 7:36 am
  #119  
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Originally Posted by nachtnebel View Post
How can TSA agents who are married and have children be reconciled to this?
My current theory is that they don't.

They reproduce via mitosis.
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Old Feb 14, 11, 7:55 am
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Originally Posted by Caradoc View Post
My current theory is that they don't.

They reproduce via mitosis.
I get the joke, but I insist on considering the TSA agents to be just the same as I am. They are not some lower form of life. They can understand things the same as I can, they have, or should have, most of the same feelings of protection and love as I have for my family. They would not want their loved ones felt over, looked at naked to the point of tears. Why then do they do this to others? Why would a woman grope over another woman's hair, knowing the impact of this?

I do not give them a pass. They are humans the same as we are. They should know better. They should act better. they should refuse to degrade others as they would not want to be degraded themselves.
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