Touching face and hair -- what is point?

Old Feb 16, 11, 9:56 am
  #151  
 
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Welcome to the new posters.

To the person flying from Madrid to the US: there are 'extra security measures' put in place at the 'request' of the US on US bound flights on US carriers.

And yes, there are times when men will screen women; even some of the TSOs here have said that. There is a shortfall of female TSOs and one of the LTSOs who posts here explained the challenges when it comes to females. The lack of female screeners also often results in a longer delay for female travellers.

While I don't agree with some of the name calling and the hyperbole here, if you take the time to read objectively here you may find that you change some of your opinions about 'security' and come to realise that a lot of it is just for show.

RadioGirl has some excellent summary posts explaining the subject, especially in the 'fuss' thread.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 11:42 am
  #152  
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Originally Posted by yostwl View Post
Yes, security services do this in many countries around the world--as far back as 1971 I was thoroughly patted down every time I flew out of South Korea. Leaving Madrid last year, we went through regular security with the usual machines and I was selected for a patdown and shoe inspection. Then when we got to the gate area, there was a second security line where we had to totally empty all of our carryon items and spread them out onto a table for inspection, and we all had another thorough patdown.

These inspections turn up thousands of real weapons every year--guns, knives (I mean real blades, not your Swiss Army knife), nunchuks, brass knuckles, blackjacks--you name it and they've confiscated it.

Do they catch everything? Of course not, there are just too many passengers to screen to be 100% effective--but they do find a lot, and that is fine with me.
Please. 'Security services in many countries around the world'? You are posting on a site with many frequent flyers. I have travelled extensively and I have never encountered the US brand of security anywhere else. I have seen 'extra' nonsense added on at the US behest at some airports on US-bound flights - not because the country feels their security is lacking, but to accommodate US requirements. I have never encountered the TSA level of rudeness, unprofessional behavior, and idiocy anywhere else. I have encountered a similar (or worse) level of theft from baggage. And it would be interesting to compare your experience in South Korea in 1971 with a more current report of security procedures in that country. Certainly I experienced nothing like it in 2007.


If the gate check of carryon turns up 'thousands of real weapons', then the initial checkpoint screening has been a farce.

This thread is about hair and face inspections (and collars, including t-shirt collars) have been added in. Can you point to any source that states that 'thousands of real weapons' of the type you list (or even one) have been found in hair, on someone's face or in a t-shirt collar?

Please don't go all 'James Bond' here. As an earlier poster pointed out, if hair and face and t-shirt collars have to be inspected as potential 'threat matrices', then children should not be getting off with a modified patdown. We have heard repeatedly that the bad guys will stop at nothing, including using innocent women and children. We've also all seen James Bond movies (and read or heard of real life accounts) of the things that can be concealed in a fake tooth or dental plate or body cavity. Why aren't we inspecting them, at least randomly?

Last edited by chollie; Feb 16, 11 at 11:48 am
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Old Feb 16, 11, 11:43 am
  #153  
 
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I had the "naked" scanner the first day they had it in Las Vegas. And then I had the groping. I did not want the naked scanner and if I had known I was going to get the grope too, I certainly would have opted out. I had my hair on top of my head in a little bun and guess what? They put their grimy gloves all through my hair too....yuk!
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Old Feb 16, 11, 11:54 am
  #154  
 
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Originally Posted by njbaglady View Post
I don't believe the face stroking story for a minute, a man wouldn't be patting down a woman. But most of all I don't believe what I read here. Adults calling other people creeps and other demeaning terms! What are you 12 yrs old???? Talk about ridiculous! Take a bus! And to the person who brags she's told TSA she bettter not meet them on the outside !!! Honey if I worked there and you said that to me I would report you in a New York minute!!! Are you kidding me? I think all the name callers need to get on the aircraft - the one without security! The system may be flawed but at least they are trying, and that name callers is better than ANY of you !!!
Happy to oblige. What is the reservation number?
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Old Feb 16, 11, 11:58 am
  #155  
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Originally Posted by njbaglady View Post
I don't believe the face stroking story for a minute, a man wouldn't be patting down a woman. But most of all I don't believe what I read here. Adults calling other people creeps and other demeaning terms! What are you 12 yrs old???? Talk about ridiculous! Take a bus! And to the person who brags she's told TSA she bettter not meet them on the outside !!! Honey if I worked there and you said that to me I would report you in a New York minute!!! Are you kidding me? I think all the name callers need to get on the aircraft - the one without security! The system may be flawed but at least they are trying, and that name callers is better than ANY of you !!!
At least they're trying?

Pretty pointless statement. If the TSA really wanted to have decent security, we would not be groped/scanned/robbed.

I'd be happy to fly a flight without security.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 12:07 pm
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Originally Posted by ElizabethConley View Post
IMHO this constitutes a degradation of our quality of life and a serious attack on our societal norms that is bound to have severe consequences.
+1
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Old Feb 16, 11, 12:09 pm
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Originally Posted by njbaglady
I don't believe the face stroking story for a minute, a man wouldn't be patting down a woman.
It has happened. People are torqued for a reason.

Take a bus!
And who else would you like to disenfranchise today? Read the US Constitution. It won't take long.

the system may be flawed but at least they are trying
Trying to do what? Sexually assault us? Rob us of every ounce of our privacy? Strip searching young children, girls, boys, and women, by pervs of the opposite sex, physically touching sexual organs and other intimate parts of the body such as hair, are all those things FLAWS?
Nope, these are techniques used to clear prison inmates; they are fundamental violations of the guarantees of the Constitution, and they are immediately offensive to those who have to undergo them.

Given the absolute degradation of this behavior, I find the rhetoric on these boards remarkably restrained.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 12:10 pm
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Originally Posted by nachtnebel View Post
I get the joke, but I insist on considering the TSA agents to be just the same as I am. They are not some lower form of life. They can understand things the same as I can, they have, or should have, most of the same feelings of protection and love as I have for my family. They would not want their loved ones felt over, looked at naked to the point of tears. Why then do they do this to others? Why would a woman grope over another woman's hair, knowing the impact of this?

I do not give them a pass. They are humans the same as we are. They should know better. They should act better. they should refuse to degrade others as they would not want to be degraded themselves.
Okay, I'm sure this has been brought up before, but look up Stanley Milgram's experiments and you will realize that even normal humans can do very terrible things to each other.

Edited: okay, just hadn't gotten to page 9 yet. I like the other points too.

Last edited by KSinNYC; Feb 16, 11 at 12:18 pm Reason: hadn't read page 9 of the thread yet...
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Old Feb 16, 11, 12:23 pm
  #159  
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Originally Posted by njbaglady View Post
I don't believe the face stroking story for a minute, a man wouldn't be patting down a woman. But most of all I don't believe what I read here. Adults calling other people creeps and other demeaning terms! What are you 12 yrs old???? Talk about ridiculous! Take a bus! And to the person who brags she's told TSA she bettter not meet them on the outside !!! Honey if I worked there and you said that to me I would report you in a New York minute!!! Are you kidding me? I think all the name callers need to get on the aircraft - the one without security! The system may be flawed but at least they are trying, and that name callers is better than ANY of you !!!
Welcome to FT and TS/S, njbaglady. Perhaps you could read up on some other threads in this forum, as well as google: TSA does not guarantee same sex patdowns. In some cases, if a same gender trained screener is not available, you may be patted down by someone of the opposite gender.

And I personally don't want my face touched by a stranger of either sex. I understand the TSOs have hours of training to teach them SSI information about threats I can't even imagine, but I still do not believe for one minute that touching my face will detect a threat hidden there.

There are no commercial aircraft without security. The cockpit doors have been reinforced and the last two cabin attempts were thwarted by passengers. Remember, prior to 9/11, passengers and crew had been advised to always co-operate with terrorists because the assumption was that terrorists always wanted to land the plane safely. Now we know otherwise and passengers will fight back. In the two most recent cases, US Intelligence and TSA both failed to detect and act upon the threat - the passengers saved the day.

Stick around TS/S. There's a lot to be learned here.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 12:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Tom M. View Post
So why did you say you were "not certain" when you are?


What is "weapon format"? When it is shaped like a knife?




AIT's can see between folds of skin, such as a but crack?



No you don't, and obviously you do not, despite saying "is not implying we do not trust folks" . That was my point.
Because it is not part of my primary job description, and speaking out of tuen on somehting I am not ceritifed on without verifying is different than just saying yes, or the answer is X. After thinking more about it, discussing the information falls unders SSI, so I can't discuss it.

When it's in a weapons format, there are several variations on that theme.

AITs are not perfect, but give us the ability to detect more than a metal detector.

The implication is as equal treatment as possible, while performing as equal screening as possible. From an outside point of view that could be interpreted that way. I don't trust people, but that comes from my personal experiences and past. As a part of my employment, it is not about trust, it is about making certain that I screen folks equally. I never really thought about the not trusting the public angle, but it is not a good precedent to set from a security point of view. I am also someone that has no problem with being screened to go to work, so I guess I am different.

Originally Posted by Lara21 View Post
You did disclose it by the answer you gave because I pretty much figured out what the answer was by you trying to beat around the bush with a non answer. If the answer is SSI. Then clearly the answer is yes that search is done whether the AIT/NOS/WBI sees something or not.. So it is no longer a secret. Some passengers are selected to get their hair and collars searched regardless of the AIT/NOS/WBI... WTMD... or an OPT OUT. That is one of those unpredictable things TSA Agents are allowed to do to the passengers to keep the terrorist guessing about how they are going to be searched so they won't attempt anything.

Like that really will work if a terrorist is really determined to do something.
The answer I gave, means that the subject is SSI, and I can't put any information out about it.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
What you said and I don't think you can deny is that by not searching for known threat vectors such as a body cavity weapon TSA is using "poor security? practices
I have disagreed with some of our policies in the past, and some during the present, and I am certain that I will disagree with some in the future.

Originally Posted by Chellian View Post
...unless you have something "wrong" with you that precludes AIT as an option. I don't even need to repeat this, since I've been repeating it over and over and over since I've gotten here.

Or unless you have some sort of religious proscription against being seen naked by persons of another sex, or or or or or. Most of the other stuff doesn't apply to me. I don't really care if some yahoo sees my crotch. But, um, uh, since the TSA still has no plan, no policy, no idea better than "ridicule the outlier and let people take their stuff...and maybe we'll herd you to a private room with no camera and no witness if you're traveling alone", we have a bit of a problem.
If by "wrong" you mean some sort of physical or mental inability to participate in the use of AIT, then "wrong" is not the word I would use. If that is the case (for whatever reason), then they simply are not able to use that technology, and will be afforded alternate screening.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
So eyecue's claim that not enough explosive to bring down a plane can be inserted in a human body might not be accurate.

I don't need wooden pegs, a couple of Bic stick pens will do quiet well and also make a reasonable thrusting weapon.

The point is that TSA does allow very useful items that also make excellent weapons and for little reason bans others.

Security Theater!
Eyecue may have information that is contrary to mine, based on my experience, that is a close call. Maybe yes, maybe no, and it depends on the size of the cavity and the explosive used. I am not about to conduct a bunch of serious research on it though, sounds like it might be nasty business.

Bic pens break too easy if you have a strong person wrestling with you.


Originally Posted by FaustsAccountant View Post
Regarding the "DY...to fly?"


Thank you. The connotative threat in using that phrase does not help anyone's credibility or back up any authoritative air, rather it needlessly escalates and taunts.
And thank you for not using that phrase yourself.

Edit: forgot some punctuation.
You are quite welcome, I try my best to eradicate that phrase from our dialect - it serves no purpose. There are way more effective ways to communicate with passengers even during an escalating situation.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 1:30 pm
  #161  
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Originally Posted by flapping arms View Post
And what were the screeners' responses?
One guy at Dulles said, "Well, are you going to find me a new job?" My response was, "At this stage of my career, I find myself mentoring numerous young people and helping them network. If you would like my help, a good place to start is to ASK for it, not DEMAND it."
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Old Feb 16, 11, 4:42 pm
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Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post

The answer I gave, means that the subject is SSI, and I can't put any information out about it.


Janet Napolitano and John Pistole both are stupid if they think that by keeping things SSI and hiding things from the passengers that they have prevented a terrorist from getting the secret information. Haven't they ever heard of the traitors in every organization who will sell information to the enemy for the right amount of money. Oh they may keep it hidden from the innocent passenger who isn't out to harm anyone, but the real terrorist out to bring down the plane or blow up the airport. They know it 5 minutes after the new secret rules are implemented.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 5:17 pm
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Originally Posted by Lara21 View Post
Janet Napolitano and John Pistole both are stupid if they think that by keeping things SSI and hiding things from the passengers that they have prevented a terrorist from getting the secret information. Haven't they ever heard of the traitors in every organization who will sell information to the enemy for the right amount of money. Oh they may keep it hidden from the innocent passenger who isn't out to harm anyone, but the real terrorist out to bring down the plane or blow up the airport. They know it 5 minutes after the new secret rules are implemented.
That does not absolve me of possible ramifications if I disclose said information.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 7:21 pm
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Originally Posted by gsoltso View Post
That does not absolve me of possible ramifications if I disclose said information.
My point is those two stupid fools need to get rid of the SSI when it comes to all the touchy feely stuff with the passengers.

I don't say that all SSI needs to be revealed, but when it comes to those patdowns. The exactly where and how the touching can be done needs to be clearly stated on a sign for the passenger to read

The reason for the SSI on that is to keep the terrorist in the dark, but the terrorist isn't in the dark. They know everything whether the passenger does or not.

I think I read on here in one post that you have a daughter. Are you really all that comfortable that a TSA Agent, who is a total stranger, can touch her all over at the airport and then they can hide behind SSI when it comes to where and how they can touch her. Just because it is a woman giving your daughter a patdown does not mean she can't be on a power trip and do something inappropriate to your daughter. Doesn't matter if your daughter is 15, 25 or 30 yeas old. She can still be a victim depending on how off guard she gets caught by someone in certain situations. The fact that SSI is apart of that patdown make abuse more easily to occur.
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Old Feb 16, 11, 7:29 pm
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Originally Posted by Lara21 View Post

I think I read on here in one post that you have a daughter. Are you really all that comfortable that a TSA Agent, who is a total stranger, can touch her all over at the airport and then they can hide behind SSI when it comes to where and how they can touch her. Just because it is a woman giving your daughter a patdown does not mean she can't be on a power trip and do something inappropriate to your daughter. Doesn't matter if your daughter is 15, 25 or 30 yeas old. She can still be a victim depending on how off guard she gets caught by someone in certain situations. The fact that SSI is apart of that patdown make abuse more easily to occur.
Good point, and some of us have sons. That it would be a man touching my young son all over, wherever, SSI, is not at all a comforting thought.
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