Am I the only one?

Old Feb 2, 11, 10:40 am
  #31  
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Is it less objectionable to be poked in your left eye with a sharp stick than to be poked in your right eye with a sharp stick?

For some people, yes. But for many people, that's a false choice.

Many people prefer to not be treated like criminals just because the authorities didn't pay attention to one Nigerian with incendiary underwear.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 11:12 am
  #32  
 
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Because I can't stand the thought of submitting to either one, I'm not flying. It would take an awful lot to make me break my boycott.

But it does seem to me that there is at least potential, in getting the grope, to claim power in the situation. You're making someone touch you all over who probably really doesn't want to, and you can make some carefully chosen statements that can make them regret their employment decisions.

It's really kind of a Gandhi approach. Peacefully and passively force them to publicly demonstrate their worst behavior so that they look bad.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 11:13 am
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by MikeMpls View Post
The only way out for people who do not want to be molested is not to fly, period. There is no other escape unless you have lots of $11,000 bills in your wallet.
Maybe at this point. But considering the flock of TSA smurfs I saw at an Amtrak station the other day, avoiding the scan/grope is likely to require a much greater sacrifice than "just don't fly."
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Old Feb 2, 11, 11:17 am
  #34  
 
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Speaking of "baggage"....

I've currently given up flying but I'm using this as an incentive to get in better shape. I figure if I can go through an airport wearing a 2 piece bathing suit, I'll fly again. 10 more pounds to go and a little more toning and, while I won't look what anyone would call good, hopefully no one will lose their lunch.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 2:25 pm
  #35  
 
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Both options are demeaning but at least with the grope it's demeaning for both of us.
Maybe more so for the smurf on their knees right at fellatio levle.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 2:50 pm
  #36  
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No, I do not follow you.

I opt-out for two reasons. 1) Health, 2) Privacy.

I will never go through the Nude-O-Scope. I should not have to be strip-searched by a government clerk when traveling within my own country. I do the pat-down, for the two reasons above, as well as my form of protest. If people are mad at TSA because of these procedures, going through the NoS like a sheep does not do anything.

I also like to keep an eye on my belongings. If I went through the NoS, I would not be able to keep some clerk from stealing my things.

Enjoy the radiation.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 5:05 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by PTravel View Post
I believe both the scan and the grope are serious constitutional violations. However, under no circumstances will I submit to an x-ray scan. I'm not exposing myself to ionizing radiation because it is the "lesser" constitutional violation.
Whoa, now - I never said I thought the nudeoscope was a lesser Constitutional violation than the gropedown. But it's a far more uncomfortable personal violation to have someone put their hands on my body than to have a naked picture taken of me. Just my personal preference, you understand; I'm not making a general statement or value judgment.

Both are despicable, unConstitutional, and repulsive. I am simply less repulsed on a personal level by the nudeoscope.

Originally Posted by MikeMpls View Post
How often do you fly? And how many encounters have you had with the Nude-O-Scope?

Many (most?) people who pass through the Nude-O-Scope end up being groped anyway, so you'll be driving or walking soon enough (after you pay your $11,000 fine for refusing to complete the screening process).
I fly seldom. And so I've had only one encounter with the nudeoscope, thankfully.

Let's not exaggerate - even asking if "most" people get groped anyway after choosing the nudeoscope is disingenuous. The whole reason the gropedown exists in its current form is to bully people into accepting the nudeoscope. SOME still get groped, when they trip the nudeoscope or when they're selected at so-called "random", but not most.

Also, Pissy changed the policy, because he knew it was illegal and wouldn't stand up in court if he tried to push it - you CAN refuse the gropedown after you've been nudeoscoped, without the $11,000 fine, but you won't be flying that day, period.

Originally Posted by MikeMpls View Post
And what happens if the grope comes up while you are a few thousand miles away from home?

The only way out for people who do not want to be molested is not to fly, period. There is no other escape unless you have lots of $11,000 bills in your wallet.
Lemme tell you a story...

In April 2009, I celebrated the 40th anniversary of my entry into this world with my first-ever trip to Vegas. I didn't gamble, but I took a lot of photos, did some hiking in the desert, saw some of the most beautiful, awe-inspiring sights mine eyes have ever beheld, and was moved nearly to tears at the sheer, unadulterated magnificence of places like Hoover Dam, Red Rock Canyon, Valley of Fire, and the Grand Canyon.

Coming home, I went through security at LAS without incident, and without encountering a nudeoscope, and made my way to my gate.

I sat down and watched someone getting frisked - and this was the older frisk, long before the current gropedown procedures were put into place - and a single thought came into my mind: "I will NOT be frisked like a common criminal! I'll rent a car and DRIVE from Vegas to Baltimore first!"

I still hold that position. I will never willingly submit to a pat-down, frisking, or whatever the hell they call it. I will not allow some government stooge to put their hands on my person. I'll go through the AIT scanner (despite how much I despise those monstrosities), but I won't let them touch me. If that means I can't fly some day because I get selected for a "random" pat-down, either at the CP or the gate, so be it. Trip ends.

Or, long drive home begins.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 5:25 pm
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by WillCAD View Post
Let's not exaggerate - even asking if "most" people get groped anyway after choosing the nudeoscope is disingenuous.
...die Scanner haben bislang eine Fehlerquote von unglaublichen 75 Prozent!
The scanners have up to now a fail rate of an unbelievable 75%. http://www.informelles.de/2010/12/15...d-unbrauchbar/

Durchgehen dauert doppelt solange wie ohne Nacktscanner, weil bis zu 100% der Teilnehmer noch nachkontrolliert werden müssen
On average it takes twice as long with as without naked scanner, because up to 100% of participants must be further checked. http://www.netzpolitik.org/2010/nur-...kontrollieren/

The six month test in Germany comes to end in March. Every month there are reports of the 'teething pains' of the scanner and what many news organizations term the failure of the scanner. This is an L3 MMW scanner.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 5:47 pm
  #39  
 
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OP, I think you should choose for yourself which option is less problematic. As you and others have said, both are repulsive. Caveat: I don't fly to or within the USA, specifically because I don't want to face this choice, especially as my hip implant eliminates the self-opt-out WTMD line as an option.

So I'm not trying to change your mind or talk you into anything. But for me the list of decision points would be:
  • Both NoS and grope-downs are a violation of the 4th Amendment.
  • Both can be mis-used for the personal pleasure of the smurfs.
  • Both are inefficient at increasing security.

But
  • Backscatter NoS has health risks that a grope-down doesn't.
  • NoS images can be stored.
  • NoS by design blocks my view of my laptop, purse, etc while with a grope-down there is some scope for maintaining line of sight.
  • NoS requires that I take every last scrap of paper, including BP and passport, out of my pockets and leave it where I can't see it.
  • NoS is "painless" for the smurf sending me to it (although maybe not for the smurf viewing ), while the grope-down makes the smurf do some work and is potentially embarrassing for them. (Also, coming off a 14-hr SYD-LAX in Y on a hot day? Yikes. The smurf is definitely going to suffer.)
  • A grope-down in public is worse for TSA's public image than for mine.
  • NoS feels like surrender to TSA's outrageous grab for power, while opting out feels like rebellion.
  • NoS may lead to groping (some reports have said ~75% - as exbayern just posted ), but not the other way around.
  • I get patted down at other airports, although not to the degree of the TSA-approved grope-down, so I'm not AS concerned about being touched.

And while it may not affect me as an individual while I'm at the checkpoint, I object to the cost of the NoS, both in equipment and increased staffing.

Last edited by RadioGirl; Feb 2, 11 at 5:49 pm Reason: Saw previous post
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Old Feb 2, 11, 6:07 pm
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by WillCAD View Post
Both are despicable, unConstitutional, and repulsive. I am simply less repulsed on a personal level by the nudeoscope.

I still hold that position. I will never willingly submit to a pat-down, frisking, or whatever the hell they call it. I will not allow some government stooge to put their hands on my person. I'll go through the AIT scanner (despite how much I despise those monstrosities), but I won't let them touch me. If that means I can't fly some day because I get selected for a "random" pat-down, either at the CP or the gate, so be it. Trip ends.

Or, long drive home begins.
I will always opt out but completely respect the decision you make for yourself.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 6:16 pm
  #41  
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Originally Posted by WillCAD View Post
Let's not exaggerate - even asking if "most" people get groped anyway after choosing the nudeoscope is disingenuous. The whole reason the gropedown exists in its current form is to bully people into accepting the nudeoscope. SOME still get groped, when they trip the nudeoscope or when they're selected at so-called "random", but not most.
Yes, "most", not "many". A majority of scans reveal "anomalies" that must be resolved.

Originally Posted by WillCAD View Post
Also, Pissy changed the policy, because he knew it was illegal and wouldn't stand up in court if he tried to push it - you CAN refuse the gropedown after you've been nudeoscoped, without the $11,000 fine, but you won't be flying that day, period.
I'm not aware of any such policy changes. However, it's wonderful that you know what's in Pistole's head. Please continue to keep us informed as to his thoughts.

Last edited by MikeMpls; Nov 15, 13 at 4:37 pm
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Old Feb 2, 11, 6:31 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by WillCAD View Post
I took a lot of photos, did some hiking in the desert, saw some of the most beautiful, awe-inspiring sights mine eyes have ever beheld, and was moved nearly to tears at the sheer, unadulterated magnificence of places like Hoover Dam, Red Rock Canyon, Valley of Fire, and the Grand Canyon...

I still hold that position. I will never willingly submit to a pat-down, frisking, or whatever the hell they call it. I will not allow some government stooge to put their hands on my person. I'll go through the AIT scanner (despite how much I despise those monstrosities), but I won't let them touch me. If that means I can't fly some day because I get selected for a "random" pat-down, either at the CP or the gate, so be it. Trip ends.

Or, long drive home begins.
^ Agree completely. Feel the same way. I wouldn't risk going through the scanner mainly from fear of groping later, somewhat from worries of skin cancer, that's the only difference. But the sexual molestation is - simply, no, not going to happen. Over my dead body.

Also, incidentally, agree with your travel itinerary - the hiking in the desert, photography and canyons.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 6:52 pm
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by rjw242 View Post
Maybe at this point. But considering the flock of TSA smurfs I saw at an Amtrak station the other day, avoiding the scan/grope is likely to require a much greater sacrifice than "just don't fly."
I personally hope that TSA goes full throttle on Amtrak stations asap. Many Amtrak pax are commuters and there lots of them. This would affect a large number of folks on a daily basis, mostly in urban/suburban areas and would have a concentrated impact in those areas.

While there was public outrage in November, TSA caught on and backed off over the Christmas holidays and avoided another meltdown. Since the air travel market is highly fragmented, only the relatively small core of frequent flyers truly experience how invasive these procedures are and they don't have a union or organization representing them.

Most casual travelers are as likely to get the WTMD as NoS and then only once or twice a year. In the event that they do get frisked, again it's only once a year and unless its exceptionally bad, won't have an impact on their weekly routine. Consequently they'll rationalize the experience and won't bother to file any sort of complaint.

If airport style security comes to Amtrak then maybe some of those casual travelers will get to share the experience.
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Old Feb 2, 11, 7:56 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by ElizabethConley View Post
For my family, I will fly. For them, anything. Other than that - The fascist thugs of the DHS can Eat S#it and Bark at the Moon. I loathe them with every fiber of my being.
This seems kind of an over the top personal attack to an entire group, I hope you dont fly much for the sake of your blood pressure and gastro intestinal system?

Last edited by Dan_E; Feb 2, 11 at 7:57 pm Reason: cooling my jets
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Old Feb 2, 11, 8:03 pm
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Dan_E View Post
This seems kind of an over the top personal attack to an entire group,.....
It's the norm around here.
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