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-   -   Grounds for search AFTER the checkpoint (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/1157640-grounds-search-after-checkpoint.html)

saizai Dec 8, 2010 9:14 am

Grounds for search AFTER the checkpoint
 
... what are they?

I can see:
1. administrative search, carried out by TSA or cops, limited exclusively to the minimum necessary to detect weapons or explosives, because they have reason to believe they may have missed something at the checkpoint
2. US territory entry/exit search, carried out by CBP, to do whatever the hell they want
3. police search, carried out by cops, in the usual Terry stop / incident to arrest / consensual trichotomy that applies outside of airports

Is there something else?

FriendlySkies Dec 8, 2010 9:32 am

I'd add, Because they can.. Don't like it, don't fly :rolleyes: :mad:

saizai Dec 8, 2010 10:09 am


Originally Posted by FriendlySkies (Post 15406469)
I'd add, Because they can.. Don't like it, don't fly :rolleyes: :mad:

That's "administrative search". :rolleyes:

BarbiJKM Dec 10, 2010 10:54 am

If you are looking for legal authority for search beyond the checkpoint, it's here: 49 U.S.C. § 44901 : US Code - Section 44901: Screening passengers and property

Firebug4 Dec 10, 2010 11:24 am


Originally Posted by saizai (Post 15406351)
... what are they?

I can see:
1. administrative search, carried out by TSA or cops, limited exclusively to the minimum necessary to detect weapons or explosives, because they have reason to believe they may have missed something at the checkpoint
2. US territory entry/exit search, carried out by CBP, to do whatever the hell they want
3. police search, carried out by cops, in the usual Terry stop / incident to arrest / consensual trichotomy that applies outside of airports

Is there something else?

Your number one is not correct. Law Enforcement will not be performing a administrative search beyond the checkpoint. Law Enforcement still requires at least reasonable suspicion to conduct a search unless one of the recognized exceptions exist at the time.

FB

sbagdon Dec 10, 2010 11:52 am

I verbalize my understanding of the sterile area in that you are allowed to have an administrative search performed on you or your items at any time, whether attempting to enter the sterile area (checkpoint), or being in the sterile area (airside). This includes random pat-downs, bag searches, explosives testing, gate searches, and any other searches they wish to do, all performed by the TSA.

Everything that takes place at the checkpoint can be performed on you at any time, any place, in any way, and probably some things we never imagined, once you choose to be in the sterile area. It's a different world in there, then most pax are used to. :)

dagowolf Dec 10, 2010 12:08 pm


Originally Posted by sbagdon (Post 15422146)
I verbalize my understanding of the sterile area in that you are allowed to have an administrative search performed on you or your items at any time, whether attempting to enter the sterile area (checkpoint), or being in the sterile area (airside). This includes random pat-downs, bag searches, explosives testing, gate searches, and any other searches they wish to do, all performed by the TSA.

Which has always begged the question, if you are screened when you enter 'sterile' and all goods and workers are supposedly screened (whether via machines or background checks), then aren't these searches tantamount to admission by the TSA that their primary screening is excessively flawed?

sbagdon Dec 10, 2010 12:31 pm


Originally Posted by dagowolf (Post 15422261)
Which has always begged the question, if you are screened when you enter 'sterile' and all goods and workers are supposedly screened (whether via machines or background checks), then aren't these searches tantamount to admission by the TSA that their primary screening is excessively flawed?

Stop using logic, it's only confusing the situation. :)

I wouldn't say "excessively". Yet enough to start the debate.

There's a defense for refusing a gate search. "you are hence admitting that your checkpoint security is inadequate, which makes me feel unsafe enough to decide not to fly. you may not search me, I'm leaving now, go find an LEO to escort me out".

Wally Bird Dec 10, 2010 12:44 pm


Originally Posted by BarbiJKM (Post 15421732)
If you are looking for legal authority for search beyond the checkpoint, it's here: 49 U.S.C. § 44901 : US Code - Section 44901: Screening passengers and property

Well, maybe. Nowhere does it clarify how many times a passenger may be searched and you or I can read that at just once or as many times as they like, depending upon which you prefer.

Like so many things about the TSA (possibly everything) it needs to be argued in a court. Unless it already has been and I missed it.

Affection Dec 10, 2010 1:12 pm

A Terry search inside the sterile area would be almost impossible to justify. An officer can only perform a Terry search if he has some reason to suspect that you are armed. I'd replace 3 with "probable cause by an LEO."


Originally Posted by saizai (Post 15406351)
3. police search, carried out by cops, in the usual Terry stop / incident to arrest / consensual trichotomy that applies outside of airports

--Jon

____________________________________
My lawsuit against the TSA:
http://tsaoutofourpants.wordpress.com/

PTravel Dec 10, 2010 1:24 pm

I have maintained for some time (as my personal opinion, not my professional one), that there is no constitutional authorization of searches within the sterile area.

nasa808 Dec 10, 2010 1:31 pm

In Florida v. J.L. (2000), the Supreme Court suggested in dicta that an anonymous tip of a person with a firearm in a school or in an airport, or a person carrying a bomb would be sufficient to conduct a Terry Stop and Frisk.


A Terry search inside the sterile area would be almost impossible to justify. An officer can only perform a Terry search if he has some reason to suspect that you are armed. I'd replace 3 with "probable cause by an LEO."

Wally Bird Dec 10, 2010 5:59 pm


Originally Posted by nasa808 (Post 15422824)
In Florida v. J.L. (2000), the Supreme Court suggested in dicta that an anonymous tip of a person with a firearm in a school or in an airport, or a person carrying a bomb would be sufficient to conduct a Terry Stop and Frisk.

Screeners do not have the power to perform a Terry stop.

nasa808 Dec 10, 2010 10:10 pm


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 15424265)
Screeners do not have the power to perform a Terry stop.

I'm fully aware of that. My statement was intended for the individual who's statement I quoted.

sbagdon Dec 11, 2010 4:56 am


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 15424265)
Screeners do not have the power to perform a Terry stop.

Yet I interpret the rules to say that TSOs may perform an administrative search on a pax at any time, on any one, in any way, while inside the sterile area. Hence, gate pat-downs. And anything they find that's felonious would be forwarded to an LEO.


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