WOW...The Pat Down Has Actually Gotten Worse
Dec 9, 2010, 1:01 am
#31
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: BA/AA/AS/B6/WN/ UA/HH/MR and more like 'em but most felicitously & importantly MUCCI
Posts: 19,719
I am not that much of a conspiracy theorist to suggest that TSA administration is bringing high-level employees or CIA operatives here. LOL.
What I am suggesting is that some clerks may be saying to their work buds "Hey buddy, you gotta check out this site where all there (sp incorrect on purpose lol) people are against the TSA. Man, if this **** goes down we might lose our jobs or somethin. Check out this link and see if you can get em all ticked off. Just go to www...."
From the tone of the posts, including the grammar and the generic arguments they give, it seems like this may be what is happening.
What I am suggesting is that some clerks may be saying to their work buds "Hey buddy, you gotta check out this site where all there (sp incorrect on purpose lol) people are against the TSA. Man, if this **** goes down we might lose our jobs or somethin. Check out this link and see if you can get em all ticked off. Just go to www...."
From the tone of the posts, including the grammar and the generic arguments they give, it seems like this may be what is happening.
Dec 9, 2010, 2:04 am
#32
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NY
Posts: 342
Interesting thought, but most of those new posters I've seen are not using logic, charm, or reason to win converts. There's a lot of reactionary rhetoric; the most recent example was simply an ad hominem attack on the entire United States. If you were running a CIA program to sway public opinion in Lebanon or Pakistan, you wouldn't go on Lebanese or Pakistani BBS systems to post barely grammatical screeds about how Lebanon and Pakistan are horrible, primitive places.
I think it's just that FT comes up in search results more often these days which begets more traffic and a less specialized, broader audience. There's no evidence that many of these people are even frequent flyers. One relatively new poster with passionate views on airport security and checkpoint strategy admitted to me via PM that he or she had not even flown in at least a year. The newbies are sometimes just in it for the verbal jousting and borderline troll-sport, I think.
I think it's just that FT comes up in search results more often these days which begets more traffic and a less specialized, broader audience. There's no evidence that many of these people are even frequent flyers. One relatively new poster with passionate views on airport security and checkpoint strategy admitted to me via PM that he or she had not even flown in at least a year. The newbies are sometimes just in it for the verbal jousting and borderline troll-sport, I think.
Do exclamation marks some how affect taggings of threads on a forum?
I found flyertalk via google. Kept coming up in search results relating to the TSA. I then poured over the information available here, and figured out that the majority of people posting are actually people who in some cases have gone through security with in minutes of them posting on here...I have realized that first hand accounts that havent been edited by the 'media' to show better (whats the word I'm looking for?) reality? of the situation. The media often times downplays gross negligence by our govt in hopes to make the crime less criminal. Any person, who feels that the NoS and gropings are 'ok' needs only to read a few of the stories posted on this forum to realize the gross negligence being dished out by the people we empowered to protect our rights, freedoms and liberties.
I seem to have this 'gift' of finding and sniffing out the forums directly related to big events such as this...I also stumbled upon the forum which broke the Deep Water Horizon fire in the gulf before the US Coast Guard even knew about a problem, as people on a neighboring rig were posting about what they could see from their rig.
I registered here, simply because even though I do not fly, this so called security is a threat to our nation's freedoms and liberties. And I support my fellow american who says 'NO' to Govt cronies hell bent on stomping our freedoms and liberties.
Dec 9, 2010, 3:24 am
#33
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 629
Originally Posted by Kigali
Maybe one day the United States will develop to the point where its citizens will enjoy the freedoms that citizens of other countries take for granted.
Originally Posted by Kigali
But look how long it took those other countries to evolve to this point;
Originally Posted by Kigali
you can't expect a backward primitive country to join the modern world overnight.
Dec 9, 2010, 3:38 am
#34
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Programs: WN Nothing and spending the half million points from too many flights, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 8,043
I think this is a very important point. As frustrating as it is I think we need to accept that a majority of Americans may very well not want freedom. Given the choice between freedom and even an illusion of safety the majority of Americans seem to prefer safety. Sad but true.
I think you mean re-develop. In the 18th century we were a Libertarian society with more freedom than any country on the planet. Just after the revolution fought because the taxes were too high. I can just imagine how most Americans would react today to an armed rebellion over mere taxes. We are having our genitals fondled by the government and even on this very forum no one is suggesting an armed revolt. So, no, we don't at all resemble the people who founded this country. Throughout the 19th century we were still one of the most free countries on the planet. It wasn't really until the 20th century that we started our race to see how fast we could become some kind of fascist corporatocratic totalitarian police state. We have now arrived at our destination. Mind the gap.
Actually, with the exception of a few countries like China or Vietnam, the rest of the world is heading down the same road. For various historical reasons including perhaps a more educated and intelligent populace, most countries are proceeding toward a total police state with much greater caution. But as Americans we just dove right in. Our government keeps telling us how the water is fine, but then they are the masters and we are the slaves.
Well we are not backward technologically, anymore than 1984 Britain. We are just backward intellectually. In fact American culture is militantly anti-intellectual. We worship football (the kind where you tackle people) and brute strength and brawn over education and intelligence. Is it any surprise that the American public cannot be made to see reason? They have never learned how to think critically and independently. Thinking is not considered a valuable skill in our society. There was a time when America would have been a very difficult country to rule with an iron fist, but that time is long gone. Just allow people iPods and reality TV and an illusion of safety and they will accept anything.
I think you mean re-develop. In the 18th century we were a Libertarian society with more freedom than any country on the planet. Just after the revolution fought because the taxes were too high. I can just imagine how most Americans would react today to an armed rebellion over mere taxes. We are having our genitals fondled by the government and even on this very forum no one is suggesting an armed revolt. So, no, we don't at all resemble the people who founded this country. Throughout the 19th century we were still one of the most free countries on the planet. It wasn't really until the 20th century that we started our race to see how fast we could become some kind of fascist corporatocratic totalitarian police state. We have now arrived at our destination. Mind the gap.
Actually, with the exception of a few countries like China or Vietnam, the rest of the world is heading down the same road. For various historical reasons including perhaps a more educated and intelligent populace, most countries are proceeding toward a total police state with much greater caution. But as Americans we just dove right in. Our government keeps telling us how the water is fine, but then they are the masters and we are the slaves.
Well we are not backward technologically, anymore than 1984 Britain. We are just backward intellectually. In fact American culture is militantly anti-intellectual. We worship football (the kind where you tackle people) and brute strength and brawn over education and intelligence. Is it any surprise that the American public cannot be made to see reason? They have never learned how to think critically and independently. Thinking is not considered a valuable skill in our society. There was a time when America would have been a very difficult country to rule with an iron fist, but that time is long gone. Just allow people iPods and reality TV and an illusion of safety and they will accept anything.
Liberty is empowered by the intelligent and thoughtful management and mitigating of risk. We can not manage and mitigate risk without knowledge and logical thought processes. Without the ability or desire to mitigate risk we require an outside entity to mitigate it for us. Safety and security from risk can only be provided by authoritarian control.
Liberty and government provided safety and security can not coexist without conflict.
Dec 9, 2010, 4:48 am
#35
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: BWI, PHL, IAD
Programs: Marriott LT Titanium; Mileage Plus 1K, 1 MM; Global Entry
Posts: 1,516
So, in order to complain we must be "truly groped?" Would you care to define that? Also, when I get an x-ray at the doctor's office or the hospital, I know that the people viewing it have spent many years in higher education and are at least an educated group of people. The TSA hires people that have not even graduated from high school. That is offensive to me, especially if they are looking at a naked image of me on a screen. Call me a classist, or an educationist, or whatever you will, but if that jock that beat me up in high school but never graduated can look at me naked because the government says it's okay... it's not okay.
The world has changed and that's why those of us who are offended may continue to opt-out of x-rays. This doesn't solve the problem of the patdowns, but to date I haven't had a negative experience with an opt-out patdown. I'm sure my time will come and I will file suit against everyone involved.
JB
The world has changed and that's why those of us who are offended may continue to opt-out of x-rays. This doesn't solve the problem of the patdowns, but to date I haven't had a negative experience with an opt-out patdown. I'm sure my time will come and I will file suit against everyone involved.
JB
Dec 9, 2010, 5:27 am
#36
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: BWI, PHL, IAD
Programs: Marriott LT Titanium; Mileage Plus 1K, 1 MM; Global Entry
Posts: 1,516
Dec 9, 2010, 6:48 am
#37
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: BOS
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 1,356
I am amazed at all the fuss surrounding the TSA "pat downs" vs. the "body scans"! The people who are saying that they are being "groped" have obviously never been truly groped in their lives if that is what they consider a "grope"! And the "scannerphobes" worrying that perverts are looking at their bodies, give me a break! Have you ever looked at your own Xray that your doctor ordered? Without the support of undergarments it is pretty eye opening! These TSA agents don't care to oggle our perfect bodies anymore than medical staff does! But we don't consider doctors, nurses, medical assistants or hospital techs perverts! They see naked people everyday! Come on people, the world has changed. We all have a choice, we don't have to fly, we can always take the bus!
Yes, I have been groped both in night clubs and on public transit. I have also observed the pat-downs at the airport (so far 14/14 on skipping them though). I have also been patted down before the new patdowns went into effect. Here's the difference: the old patdowns never involved putting fingers inside my waistband. The old patdowns did not involve touching my breasts with the front of the hand or squeezing them, and the old patdowns did not touch between my legs at my vulva. The new patdowns do all of these things.
At a nightclub, when someone squeezes my breasts or touches me between my legs, or puts their fingers in my pants, I have options. I can move away from them, or remove their hand, or tell them to stop. If they don't stop, I can leave the club, tell the bouncer, or "accidentally" stomp on their foot with my heel, or "accidentally" spill my drink on them. I have options and a way to make it stop and I can even stay at the club with some of those options. At a checkpoint during a patdown, I can't not make it stop. I must submit until it is over and they are done touching me if I want to get on the plane.
When a doctor touches me, it is because it is part of an exam, and if at any point I feel uncomfortable, I can ask them to stop, slow down, explain to me what they are doing, or do something different to make it more comfortable and my doctor will work with me to make the exam possible. I cannot ask the screener to stop. If I question them, I run the risk of being deemed uncooperative and being told I won't fly today. Again, I have absolutely no control over the situation.
Also, when a doctor sees me naked, it's because they are standing there right in front of me. For that matter, they seldom see me fully naked. Most of the time, we get those horrible hospital gowns that don't do much, but they do give us some modesty. Any pictures they take are generally of a particular area of concern, not the whole body. Also, most of the imaging is of bones or muscles and in no way could be seen as a naked image of me. With the scanners, I have no idea who is seeing me naked, and that's disconcerting. The image is of my whole body, and as the pictures on the TSA website clearly show, they see everything. "Which way it's hanging." If one is bigger than the other. How big, how small. Things that are generally none of anyone else's business.
Dec 9, 2010, 6:53 am
#38
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton County, TX
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 737
I don't know why I bother, but here we go:
Yes, I have been groped both in night clubs and on public transit. I have also observed the pat-downs at the airport (so far 14/14 on skipping them though). I have also been patted down before the new patdowns went into effect. Here's the difference: the old patdowns never involved putting fingers inside my waistband. The old patdowns did not involve touching my breasts with the front of the hand or squeezing them, and the old patdowns did not touch between my legs at my vulva. The new patdowns do all of these things.
At a nightclub, when someone squeezes my breasts or touches me between my legs, or puts their fingers in my pants, I have options. I can move away from them, or remove their hand, or tell them to stop. If they don't stop, I can leave the club, tell the bouncer, or "accidentally" stomp on their foot with my heel, or "accidentally" spill my drink on them. I have options and a way to make it stop and I can even stay at the club with some of those options. At a checkpoint during a patdown, I can't not make it stop. I must submit until it is over and they are done touching me if I want to get on the plane.
When a doctor touches me, it is because it is part of an exam, and if at any point I feel uncomfortable, I can ask them to stop, slow down, explain to me what they are doing, or do something different to make it more comfortable and my doctor will work with me to make the exam possible. I cannot ask the screener to stop. If I question them, I run the risk of being deemed uncooperative and being told I won't fly today. Again, I have absolutely no control over the situation.
Also, when a doctor sees me naked, it's because they are standing there right in front of me. For that matter, they seldom see me fully naked. Most of the time, we get those horrible hospital gowns that don't do much, but they do give us some modesty. Any pictures they take are generally of a particular area of concern, not the whole body. Also, most of the imaging is of bones or muscles and in no way could be seen as a naked image of me. With the scanners, I have no idea who is seeing me naked, and that's disconcerting. The image is of my whole body, and as the pictures on the TSA website clearly show, they see everything. "Which way it's hanging." If one is bigger than the other. How big, how small. Things that are generally none of anyone else's business.
Yes, I have been groped both in night clubs and on public transit. I have also observed the pat-downs at the airport (so far 14/14 on skipping them though). I have also been patted down before the new patdowns went into effect. Here's the difference: the old patdowns never involved putting fingers inside my waistband. The old patdowns did not involve touching my breasts with the front of the hand or squeezing them, and the old patdowns did not touch between my legs at my vulva. The new patdowns do all of these things.
At a nightclub, when someone squeezes my breasts or touches me between my legs, or puts their fingers in my pants, I have options. I can move away from them, or remove their hand, or tell them to stop. If they don't stop, I can leave the club, tell the bouncer, or "accidentally" stomp on their foot with my heel, or "accidentally" spill my drink on them. I have options and a way to make it stop and I can even stay at the club with some of those options. At a checkpoint during a patdown, I can't not make it stop. I must submit until it is over and they are done touching me if I want to get on the plane.
When a doctor touches me, it is because it is part of an exam, and if at any point I feel uncomfortable, I can ask them to stop, slow down, explain to me what they are doing, or do something different to make it more comfortable and my doctor will work with me to make the exam possible. I cannot ask the screener to stop. If I question them, I run the risk of being deemed uncooperative and being told I won't fly today. Again, I have absolutely no control over the situation.
Also, when a doctor sees me naked, it's because they are standing there right in front of me. For that matter, they seldom see me fully naked. Most of the time, we get those horrible hospital gowns that don't do much, but they do give us some modesty. Any pictures they take are generally of a particular area of concern, not the whole body. Also, most of the imaging is of bones or muscles and in no way could be seen as a naked image of me. With the scanners, I have no idea who is seeing me naked, and that's disconcerting. The image is of my whole body, and as the pictures on the TSA website clearly show, they see everything. "Which way it's hanging." If one is bigger than the other. How big, how small. Things that are generally none of anyone else's business.
1. At a nightclub you can have the police summoned and the offender will be removed and possibly arrested.
2. When a doctor examines you, the endpoint goal is to make you WELL and to reduce your suffering, not to give you un-needed radiation and induce humiliation and compliance.
3. When your physician sees you naked it is with your explicit permission in an effort to personally help you achieve better health and well being.
Dec 9, 2010, 7:00 am
#39
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MSP
Programs: DL-PM, Small Luxury Hotels & Proud Member of TSA Disparager-Gold
Posts: 774
Absolutely it is -- these are punitive experiences with no security function (ask yourself why this interest in your pubic area, but not the small of your back, shoulder blades, armpits, soles of your feet). The intent is to humiliate you into accepting the Nude-o-Scopes. I know it is asking a lot, but please resist.
Given the cynical intent of the patdown it is OK to hate your abuser. She too has free will.
Go away. Among the hundreds of points to be made in response to your statement is: TSOs aren't exactly doctors and nurses. They barely count as professional given their employment requirements and minimal training. If you place so little value on your privacy that you're willing to give it away to leering amateurs in blue shirts staging security theater, that's a sad choice you're making, but it's your choice.
You go away too.
Given the cynical intent of the patdown it is OK to hate your abuser. She too has free will.
Go away. Among the hundreds of points to be made in response to your statement is: TSOs aren't exactly doctors and nurses. They barely count as professional given their employment requirements and minimal training. If you place so little value on your privacy that you're willing to give it away to leering amateurs in blue shirts staging security theater, that's a sad choice you're making, but it's your choice.
You go away too.
Dec 9, 2010, 7:07 am
#40
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,974
Of course, submitting to the scanner is no guarantee you won't get the patdown anyway. Somewhere here is a thread discussing what percentage of scans are 'unresolved', either because the voyeu... (sorry) screener is incompetent or the machine doesn't do what is claimed.
Dec 9, 2010, 7:25 am
#41
In Memoriam
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 361
Hi Bear,
I probably should have been more clear.
I am not that much of a conspiracy theorist to suggest that TSA administration is bringing high-level employees or CIA operatives here. LOL.
What I am suggesting is that some clerks may be saying to their work buds "Hey buddy, you gotta check out this site where all there (sp incorrect on purpose lol) people are against the TSA. Man, if this **** goes down we might lose our jobs or somethin. Check out this link and see if you can get em all ticked off. Just go to www...."
From the tone of the posts, including the grammar and the generic arguments they give, it seems like this may be what is happening. Of course, there are other possibilities too. But I thought I'd throw it out there as food for thought.
I probably should have been more clear.
I am not that much of a conspiracy theorist to suggest that TSA administration is bringing high-level employees or CIA operatives here. LOL.
What I am suggesting is that some clerks may be saying to their work buds "Hey buddy, you gotta check out this site where all there (sp incorrect on purpose lol) people are against the TSA. Man, if this **** goes down we might lose our jobs or somethin. Check out this link and see if you can get em all ticked off. Just go to www...."
From the tone of the posts, including the grammar and the generic arguments they give, it seems like this may be what is happening. Of course, there are other possibilities too. But I thought I'd throw it out there as food for thought.
Dec 9, 2010, 8:32 am
#42
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 107
I created my own complaint form specifically for the gropes: it says "TSA Violation: The undersigned was subjected to an unreasonable search without probable case in violation of his rights guaranteed by the 4th amendment of the United States Constitution." I list the badge number/name of the groper, time/location, my contact info, and I send it to the TSA with a copy to my Congressman. I've only done this once so far.
IF this was making us safer I'd put up with it, but it doesn't, and I'm not going to sheepishly submit anymore.
IF this was making us safer I'd put up with it, but it doesn't, and I'm not going to sheepishly submit anymore.
Dec 9, 2010, 8:34 am
#43
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton County, TX
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 737
I created my own complaint form specifically for the gropes: it says "TSA Violation: The undersigned was subjected to an unreasonable search without probable case in violation of his rights guaranteed by the 4th amendment of the United States Constitution." I list the badge number/name of the groper, time/location, my contact info, and I send it to the TSA with a copy to my Congressman. I've only done this once so far.
IF this was making us safer I'd put up with it, but it doesn't, and I'm not going to sheepishly submit anymore.
IF this was making us safer I'd put up with it, but it doesn't, and I'm not going to sheepishly submit anymore.
Dec 9, 2010, 8:47 am
#44
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
Dec 9, 2010, 9:14 am
#45
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SDF
Programs: DL Silver, DL Million Miler
Posts: 283
When I read Kigali's 1st post, I thought it was well written "tongue in cheek" and sarcasm. I kept waiting for ]kigali to follow up with "hey guys, it was sarcasm...stop the serious responses". But Kigali maintained his/her seriousness in response. Truly a sad post and a sad situation. This is America, how can we allow these violations of our rights to continue?
What can we do to keep this on the front page of the media? I fear it will go away as yesterday's news and the TSA wins.
What can we do to keep this on the front page of the media? I fear it will go away as yesterday's news and the TSA wins.