This will leave you in tears - or certainly ought to
Nov 24, 2010, 9:18 pm
#16
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NY
Posts: 342
You ARE reading my posts incorrectly.
I have had serious pain... multiple broken bones... I know what real pain is. I have also been thruogh similar, though not quite as extreme psychological abuse as well.
I do not blame these people for not speaking up, as they have been trained by the media, the govt, and other 'authitarian figures' to NOT speak up. Children are taught at a very young age to respect, follow orders with out question, and to trust ANY authority figure.
So thats how most people react, they just 'shut down' these cases prove such.
these cases, also prove that 'shutting down' doesnt work and new tactics by the people for the people, need to be explored. these people are experiencing extreme emotional trauma which will scar them for life, they will never trust authority after this.
the fact that more people havent stood up, shows the progression in the severity of the situation. Our govt doesnt care about us, americans. THAT is obvious. DHS Doesnt care about our safety, our or security. If they did, they wouldnt allow ANY of this to occurr, and as soon as it did theyd come down like a ton of bricks on the offending 'officers' much like abuses are handled in police departments.
however in this case (not the grandmas case, but in DHS's case) this is not true. And that fact alone shows, that we as Americans can no longer sit by, and silently take abuses dished out by 'authority' figures at mass transit stations such as airports.
so yes, you read my posts wrong. I have nothing but sympathy, and pure outrage torward the abusers of all those who have been blatently violated by our 'We are here to protect you' DHS.
I feel very strongly about protecting our elderly, as I had the experience of having to do so, in my own life.
We as a people can no longer queitly stand by while these abuses take place before us. given these cases of abuse and the fact that NO ONE at the scene spoke up, only further strengthens the fact that NOT speaking up in other innocent peoples defense doesnt work.
I have had serious pain... multiple broken bones... I know what real pain is. I have also been thruogh similar, though not quite as extreme psychological abuse as well.
I do not blame these people for not speaking up, as they have been trained by the media, the govt, and other 'authitarian figures' to NOT speak up. Children are taught at a very young age to respect, follow orders with out question, and to trust ANY authority figure.
So thats how most people react, they just 'shut down' these cases prove such.
these cases, also prove that 'shutting down' doesnt work and new tactics by the people for the people, need to be explored. these people are experiencing extreme emotional trauma which will scar them for life, they will never trust authority after this.
the fact that more people havent stood up, shows the progression in the severity of the situation. Our govt doesnt care about us, americans. THAT is obvious. DHS Doesnt care about our safety, our or security. If they did, they wouldnt allow ANY of this to occurr, and as soon as it did theyd come down like a ton of bricks on the offending 'officers' much like abuses are handled in police departments.
however in this case (not the grandmas case, but in DHS's case) this is not true. And that fact alone shows, that we as Americans can no longer sit by, and silently take abuses dished out by 'authority' figures at mass transit stations such as airports.
so yes, you read my posts wrong. I have nothing but sympathy, and pure outrage torward the abusers of all those who have been blatently violated by our 'We are here to protect you' DHS.
I feel very strongly about protecting our elderly, as I had the experience of having to do so, in my own life.
We as a people can no longer queitly stand by while these abuses take place before us. given these cases of abuse and the fact that NO ONE at the scene spoke up, only further strengthens the fact that NOT speaking up in other innocent peoples defense doesnt work.
Nov 24, 2010, 9:19 pm
#17
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA; Philadelphia, PA
Programs: OZ Diamond
Posts: 6,133
It's certainly disheartening to read stories like this. However, most people really don't really care because they are not the ones hassled and only want to get to their destination without issues or delays. Some even actually believe all these TSA theatricals actually make them safer. Judging from what I heard on the radio regarding "Optout Day", it's going to be a very difficult fight considering there are only few us behind this cause!
LAX
LAX
Nov 24, 2010, 9:19 pm
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
"Sunight is said to be the best of disinfectants."
- Louis D. Brandeis (American Supreme Court Justice, 1856-1941)
Nov 24, 2010, 9:21 pm
#19
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,967
I wholeheartedly agree that we all need to be angry, and we need to raise ire in others about this subject. It seems to be buried under all the other TSA talk and thus I keep linking to posts here to try and get more people to understand what the elderly and the disabled are going through.
Chollie and I have said many times that during this AIT discussion it seems that those who are unable to use the AIT (ie do not choose not to use it) are being overlooked. There are numerous reports of how those people are treated, and OP is correct in that they are being buried in other threads.
But the anger needs to be directed the right way to the right areas and towards the right efforts.
Chollie and I have said many times that during this AIT discussion it seems that those who are unable to use the AIT (ie do not choose not to use it) are being overlooked. There are numerous reports of how those people are treated, and OP is correct in that they are being buried in other threads.
But the anger needs to be directed the right way to the right areas and towards the right efforts.
Nov 24, 2010, 9:29 pm
#20
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: NY
Posts: 342
The anger and the outrage, is going to sooner or later boil over at the check points.
that is a fact. Sooner or later real violence is going to hit the check points. Which is why people need to start speaking up when they are being molested or hurt. Someone SCREAMING a girl, a man, at the top of their lungs about the pain they are being endured, someone, standing in that line is going to stand up and say something... TSA will swoop in and be all powerful, but if the person being abused is obviously in pain, and is showing signs of great distress and calling attention to the situation, you will have citizens on BOTH sides of the check point coming in for assistance, especially after all the bad press on the news.
Not to mention the viral youtube video of the incident. It will make national news. this quietly taking the abuse doesnt work we need to stand uop for our fellow citizen. Mr Head TSA said so himself under oath no less, that no passenger will be fined. And given not a single judge in the country has ruled on this illegal behavior, means that we as americans are LITERALLY on our own to defend ourselves.
So are we going to sit by and allow these autrocites to continue, or are we as Americans going to step up to the plate.
People often say its your civic duty to serve as a juror. well it is ALSO your civic duty to uphold the constitution.
that is a fact. Sooner or later real violence is going to hit the check points. Which is why people need to start speaking up when they are being molested or hurt. Someone SCREAMING a girl, a man, at the top of their lungs about the pain they are being endured, someone, standing in that line is going to stand up and say something... TSA will swoop in and be all powerful, but if the person being abused is obviously in pain, and is showing signs of great distress and calling attention to the situation, you will have citizens on BOTH sides of the check point coming in for assistance, especially after all the bad press on the news.
Not to mention the viral youtube video of the incident. It will make national news. this quietly taking the abuse doesnt work we need to stand uop for our fellow citizen. Mr Head TSA said so himself under oath no less, that no passenger will be fined. And given not a single judge in the country has ruled on this illegal behavior, means that we as americans are LITERALLY on our own to defend ourselves.
So are we going to sit by and allow these autrocites to continue, or are we as Americans going to step up to the plate.
People often say its your civic duty to serve as a juror. well it is ALSO your civic duty to uphold the constitution.
Nov 24, 2010, 9:29 pm
#21
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Northeast Kansas | Colorado Native
Programs: Amex Gold/Plat, UA *G, Hyatt Globalist, Marriott LT Gold, NEXUS, TSA Disparager Unobtanium
Posts: 21,600
Nov 24, 2010, 9:46 pm
#23
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,145
There just aren't words to express how sickened I am to read this. 
Their vulnerability, shock, helplessness....it is so palpable in reading LeeAnn's words. What is wrong with someone who could treat another human being in such a way? What has happened to the people who do this that has made them so calloused, so completely devoid of any human compassion?
I don't know if I could speak up for myself, but I hope I could speak up if I witnessed it happening to someone vulnerable like LeeAnn's mother. I hope someone would speak up if it were my mother (my 73 year-old mother who got the word "SECONDARY!" shouted in her ear when she slipped out her Costco card inadvertently in place of her driver license...she's kind of a renegade that way.
)
Their vulnerability, shock, helplessness....it is so palpable in reading LeeAnn's words. What is wrong with someone who could treat another human being in such a way? What has happened to the people who do this that has made them so calloused, so completely devoid of any human compassion?
I don't know if I could speak up for myself, but I hope I could speak up if I witnessed it happening to someone vulnerable like LeeAnn's mother. I hope someone would speak up if it were my mother (my 73 year-old mother who got the word "SECONDARY!" shouted in her ear when she slipped out her Costco card inadvertently in place of her driver license...she's kind of a renegade that way.
)
Nov 24, 2010, 11:04 pm
#24
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SYD (perenially), GVA (not in a long time)
Programs: QF PS, EK-Gold, Security Theatre Critic
Posts: 6,766
This is difficult, and I can easily envision my mother in such incidents. Looking at this from the point-of-view of the victim, the TSA clerk and a bystander:
Exbayern's point (I think) is that the victim is already embarrassed enough without drawing added attention to it. I can't imagine my mother shouting "she's trying to see my diaper!" or "I needed the restroom so bad I wet myself!" or "she's pushing on the scars in my breast" nor would I expect her to. Most people would be hesitant to expose such details, and even in lesser situations, many people would rather "suffer through" than make a scene. I know from experience how quickly things can go from the point of "please don't make a fuss over me" to being unconscious! And infrequent travelers are caught by surprise that a gov't "agent" would be so insensitive. We can't expect that everyone will stand up for themselves in such a situation.
Unfortunately, I think TSA employees (possibly unconsciously) often take advantage of this. I sense an attitude of "I know this embarrasses you, but you won't complain out loud because that would be even more embarrassing." It's been said that they need training to be more sensitive (in their words as well as literally in their touch) but given the "we are the front line, you are a potential terrorist, you will RESPECT me" attitude, I don't see it happening across the board.
Then there's the role of the other passengers, which is Saitek's point. And while I agree that anyone should jump in if there's actual violence or if the victim is shouting for help, LeeAnn's mother was quiet until the screener started screaming at her and quiet throughout her second incident (OP). If it were my mother, I'd (try to) intervene as soon as something looked wrong. But for a complete stranger, it's hard to judge exactly when it's gone too far. If someone is starting to cry, or shake, or seems under verbal attack, is it better to try to help, or will you just add to their distress? Should I, as a woman, go to the aid of a man 15 years younger, or will he be offended and further humiliated? It's hard to assess.
These are not easy questions but I agree that we all need to stand up for ourselves, and for each other, a lot more!
Exbayern's point (I think) is that the victim is already embarrassed enough without drawing added attention to it. I can't imagine my mother shouting "she's trying to see my diaper!" or "I needed the restroom so bad I wet myself!" or "she's pushing on the scars in my breast" nor would I expect her to. Most people would be hesitant to expose such details, and even in lesser situations, many people would rather "suffer through" than make a scene. I know from experience how quickly things can go from the point of "please don't make a fuss over me" to being unconscious! And infrequent travelers are caught by surprise that a gov't "agent" would be so insensitive. We can't expect that everyone will stand up for themselves in such a situation.
Unfortunately, I think TSA employees (possibly unconsciously) often take advantage of this. I sense an attitude of "I know this embarrasses you, but you won't complain out loud because that would be even more embarrassing." It's been said that they need training to be more sensitive (in their words as well as literally in their touch) but given the "we are the front line, you are a potential terrorist, you will RESPECT me" attitude, I don't see it happening across the board.
Then there's the role of the other passengers, which is Saitek's point. And while I agree that anyone should jump in if there's actual violence or if the victim is shouting for help, LeeAnn's mother was quiet until the screener started screaming at her and quiet throughout her second incident (OP). If it were my mother, I'd (try to) intervene as soon as something looked wrong. But for a complete stranger, it's hard to judge exactly when it's gone too far. If someone is starting to cry, or shake, or seems under verbal attack, is it better to try to help, or will you just add to their distress? Should I, as a woman, go to the aid of a man 15 years younger, or will he be offended and further humiliated? It's hard to assess.
These are not easy questions but I agree that we all need to stand up for ourselves, and for each other, a lot more!
Nov 24, 2010, 11:31 pm
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
Witness (or more accurately DON'T witness) this, in the thread "Forbes reporter prohibited from filming wife's patdown:"
REALLY good article:
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenber...l-not-so-fast/
The right to photography at TSA checkpoints matters: I was mostly hoping to show my wife her ridiculous facial expressions as she received “love pats” from a stranger. Others might hope to document real TSA abuses, or point out dangerous vulnerabilities in its security measures.
If the TSA believes there’s a good reason to prevent photography at checkpoints–an important check on agents’ power, and one that’s increasingly relevant as procedures cut closer to the line of what passengers will tolerate–perhaps it should create rules to that effect. Giving discretion to TSA agents themselves is a perfect way to make sure that the most abusive agents have the power to go about their groping without pesky repercussions.
http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenber...l-not-so-fast/
The right to photography at TSA checkpoints matters: I was mostly hoping to show my wife her ridiculous facial expressions as she received “love pats” from a stranger. Others might hope to document real TSA abuses, or point out dangerous vulnerabilities in its security measures.
If the TSA believes there’s a good reason to prevent photography at checkpoints–an important check on agents’ power, and one that’s increasingly relevant as procedures cut closer to the line of what passengers will tolerate–perhaps it should create rules to that effect. Giving discretion to TSA agents themselves is a perfect way to make sure that the most abusive agents have the power to go about their groping without pesky repercussions.
http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2010/1...ed-by-tsa.html
And here's the money quote from the blog post:
While sitting there, I was drawn into other conversations, like this one with a higher level manager (she was dressed I in a suit rather than a uniform):
TSA: Don’t you have normal operating procedures at your work?
Me: Yes
TSA: How would you like it if somebody came to your work and disrupted your procedures? How would you like it if people took pictures of you at your work?
Me: I don’t work for the government. Government agencies need to be accountable to the public, and therefore suffer disruptions like this.
TSA: Not all parts of the government are accountable to the public, especially the TSA.
Me: Wow. No, ALL parts of the government are accountable to the people, especially the TSA. I’m not sure what type of country you think we live in.
Wow. Just wow.
And here's the money quote from the blog post:
While sitting there, I was drawn into other conversations, like this one with a higher level manager (she was dressed I in a suit rather than a uniform):
TSA: Don’t you have normal operating procedures at your work?
Me: Yes
TSA: How would you like it if somebody came to your work and disrupted your procedures? How would you like it if people took pictures of you at your work?
Me: I don’t work for the government. Government agencies need to be accountable to the public, and therefore suffer disruptions like this.
TSA: Not all parts of the government are accountable to the public, especially the TSA.
Me: Wow. No, ALL parts of the government are accountable to the people, especially the TSA. I’m not sure what type of country you think we live in.
Wow. Just wow.
They can always deny, deny, deny the experiences of LeeAnne's mother ever happened. So how's this, TSA: Since you're stopping people from documenting your work, from now on we'll assume these things are true and THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS NOW ON YOU!
Last edited by LostInParadise; Nov 24, 2010 at 11:36 pm Reason: fixed hyperlink
Nov 24, 2010, 11:53 pm
#26
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Nashville, TN - BNA
Programs: Hilton Gold, WN RR
Posts: 1,818
Apparently airline bookings were down today. I have to think that nobody, upon reading multiple stories like this, would want to put themselves or loved ones through this hell.
It'll be interesting to watch it dawn on the mainstream media that people are beginning to boycott airports.
It'll be interesting to watch it dawn on the mainstream media that people are beginning to boycott airports.
Nov 25, 2010, 12:12 am
#27
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 31
[QUOTE=exbayern;15276243]Thanks for highlighting that.
I have posted links to similar such stories within threads; I don't know how much viewership they received but LeeAnne's mother's story is sadly just one of many.
/QUOTE]
The story could be real, but most likely, as Penn & Teller might say ........!
I have posted links to similar such stories within threads; I don't know how much viewership they received but LeeAnne's mother's story is sadly just one of many.
/QUOTE]
The story could be real, but most likely, as Penn & Teller might say ........!
Nov 25, 2010, 12:31 am
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
Nah, I call "Penn & Teller" on the TSA. As noted, since the TSA thugs are stopping people from documenting their atrocities, the burden of proving this didn't happen has now shifted to these officious propaganda artists. Besides, something tells me their phony security theater is one perfect target for P&T's cable crosshairs.
Nov 25, 2010, 1:04 am
#29
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 438
I'm the LeeAnne of the original story. I just discovered this thread, and I want to express thanks for everyone's compassion and understanding. I'm actually surprised and pleased to see that so many of you GET it - you get why we reacted the way we did. We WERE shocked, stunned, vulnerable and afraid.
When the first incident happened last year, changing planes in Atlanta on our way home from a Baltics cruise, it was just so unexpected. Mom and I have traveled all over the world (I tell people I'm people I'm paying her back for what a horrible teenager I was by taking her to all the places on her bucket list
) and this was the first time anything like this had happened to us. Mom had gone through the pat-down without problems at every leg of that trip - Phoenix to Burbank (to my house), then LAX to Stockholm, hell we'd just taken flights between St. Petersburg and Moscow (as a cruise excursion), and even THEY treated us with greater respect than our own government!Anyway, she got the hip replaced a couple of months before that trip, so she now gets patted down at every single airport. The ATL incident caught us completely by surprise - we'd just disembarked from a long flight from Copenhagen and we were exhausted. The worst part of it was the total feeling of helplessness - we both just knew that they hold all the power, and if we gave them ANY kind of resistance, we'd be punished in some way. They were very intimidating. I'd read TSA horror stories before - there's one from several years ago about a reporter who's pregnant wife resisted having her breasts touched, and the husband ended up being thrown in jail for speaking up! That's what worried us - that if we protested at all, they'd somehow hurt us. Make us miss our plane, or fine us, or even throw us in jail. After a 13-hour flight, just wanting to get home, we felt completely and utterly vulnerable.
I wanted to do something, but what could I do? I was literally shaking in anger, wanting to go comfort her, to tell that beast to GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY MOTHER! But what would have happened if I'd done that? I'd probably have been thrown in jail...and then what about my Mom?
I think that makes me the angriest of all: that we are completely at the mercy of these low-level people with barely any training and zero understanding of how to deal with people with medical conditions - and we have no recourse. None. If we want to go on vacation, or go visit family, or just go HOME from wherever we are, we have to give up one of our most basic rights: the right to decide who TOUCHES OUR PRIVATE PARTS. Because no matter what, my mother is going to have to go through the pat-down for every single flight she goes on, for the rest of her life. That's something that seems to have been lost in a lot of the articles I've read about this, when they write about how few people have had problems: some people don't get the option - they have to go through the grope EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I'm sure they won't all be this awful. She flies back home to Phoenix from Burbank on Monday - and I can only pray they treat her with more respect. But to be honest, I'm not holding out a lot of hope.
As for speaking up - if she knew I was posting this on the internet she'd kill me. She is a proud woman, and she refuses to even talk about it now. I WILL talk about it, but I'll respect my mother's wishes by not revealing her (or my) identity. I owe her that. I know it's not as good as getting out there and openly telling our story, but it's the best I can do.
Nov 25, 2010, 1:08 am
#30
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,051
I don't think that you understand that some people don't want to be further embarassed by having a 'scene'