novapain

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLNE6AK00920101121

Of course, the opening line is obnoxious as hell -- no, we're not refusing the nude scanners because we're SHY. We're refusing because we value our privacy. But otherwise an interesting development.

michellemck99

Novapain - welcome to FlyerTalk!

Agreed - the opening line is quite obnoxious. But good find, they're paying attention. ^

mre5765

Who cares what the self-styled U.S. Travel Association thinks?

Flyertalk.com is the real association of travelers.

BearX220

I'm afraid we're not. FT represents an unusually rarified, intense slice of the flying public. We're more apt to be elite or up in first class; we're more apt to both defend our favorite airlines and complain about comparative trivia.

It's interesting to me that in 12 years and through the whole post-9/11 drama, FT has not emerged as a coherent public voice for travelers. One problem may be the amount of derision FTers aim at "the Kettles," "the great unwashed," etc. Super-elites, like the super-rich, tend to safeguard their own interests. Certainly a lot of airline people see FTers as high-maintenance whiners obsessed with gaming the system and sequestering themselves from the Kettles. Not a very good launch pad for an egalitarian, all-for-one, one-for-all campaign.

With regard to the current TSA issues, I suspect that if TSA offered VFFs a biometric fast-track solution that spared them the backscatters, many if not most FTers would be quickly mollified, take the deal, and leave "the Kettles" to the Nude-o-Scopes. This loose confederation of frequent flyers is fascinating, passionate, well-informed and funny, but it tends to pursue and defend its own high-end agenda, not that of the flying public at large.

LuvAirFrance

USTA is a representative of BUSINESSES, businesses that depend on you. They want to know if they are gonna LOSE income because of the bullying in the same of security. You should definitely tell them "yes, you will, more and more, and for nothing"

Umi206

Yes, since joining this site this has been my conclusion as well. I had never heard the term "ma and pa kettle" before finding this site (by googling about a week ago) and I don't know if it applies to me or not. Whatever, I think it divisive to the cause but then this site is mostly about an "elite" group of flyers and not the general public which flies. I already posted here about USTA's new website. I'd never been to USTA's website before I stumbled on their new site collecting stories from the traveling public about TSA and the gropings and the nudeoscopes but I felt comfortable there. I'm not sure how I feel here. I'm not a business flyer and fly as little as possible, but living in Hawaii, on a neighbor island, that means I fly EVERY TIME I need to go somewhere within the Hawaiian islands or to the Mainland USA, etc. I'm older now and have to fly A LOT to obtain medical care available only on Oahu or the Mainland but that doesn't make me one of the "elite" flyers that this site is designed to serve.

I wish this site was more egalitarian as I have found very helpful information here but I would hesitate to send my friends here for fear they would be labeled ma and pa kettle. Rather ironic since we in the Islands MUST fly. We don't have the luxury of the choices almost everyone else here has and this entire TSA situation affects us far more intensely than it does any of you. What I am trying to say is that I sense a real put down of average fliers here and that elite attitude is not going help in the fight that we all must pull together to win. The battle will be a long one and I also do not sense deep and lengthy commitment here. That is ok as those who post here have every right to their interests whether or not those interests serve the flying public in general but it does make this site a bit more peripheral than central to the fight we all face and should all be working together to win.

andrew walker

Most of what I wanted to say has just been said. I wanted to add that I find the term "kettles" to be rather off-putting. Freedom of speech and all, but it doesn't really help the cause.

RedSnapper

+1 to this. We are all in this together. The people standing in front of you and behind you in the security line need to be won over to your cause. Without your help, they will comply with any order barked at them because they don't think they have a choice. Start a polite conversation with a less than frequent traveler. Inform others they have choices and rights. Treating your fellow passengers with respect (a respect the TSA does not show them) is the key to winning the battle for the hearts and minds of the flying public.

neko

USTA represents the travel industry - it's much more significant than an internet chat forum.

Far fewer than half of Americans fly even once in a year; only about 7% fly even four times in a year.

LuvAirFrance

How about some of the other flyer websites? I mean there's an aviation counterpart of AAA that flyers can JOIN. And get benefits.

RichardKenner

And at TSA employees. It's hard to be taken seriously when you call people names, no matter what you feel about what they're doing. That's one of the reasons why I try hard to always use the proper term for everything: it's not a matter of "being PC" but of "taking the high road".

MeVoy

+++ I know it is used in more of a charmingly "cute" manner, but I wonder if the users would consider not using this term? It seems demeaning and derisory, even if that is not the intent. And it certainly does nothing to further solidarity in this struggle. We need to stand as one against those who would deprive us of our constitutional rights.

mre5765

What thing of significance has it done?

Far fewer than half of Americans fly even once in a year; only about 7% fly even four times in a year.

Indeed. And that set of Americans no doubt dominates the 80% or so that scientific polls show in favor of WBI and gropes. Their opinion doesn't matter until they start flying.

clifc

My name is Pa Kettle, my neighbors are all Ma & Pa Kettles. I've been lurking about here for several weeks and have read several of the longer threads which began back in August from beginning to end. I've posted, even a couple of dimwit ones, and have always been treated with courtesy.

In several threads your concern has already been raised by longtime members and moderators. But until someone comes up with a better phrase, I think you'll continue to see Ma & Pa pop up. Ma & Pa Kettle viscerally sets off the difference between infrequent flyers and frequent flyers. This is, after all, a forum for Frequent Flyers. I think it's useful that members have an in your face occasional reminder of their minority status and their differences from the mainstream as they go about plotting and scheming.

Call me Goober. Call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner.

Reading more threads and some of the older threads might change your mind.

Emailed [email protected] to ask if they would be sharing with the ACLU and EPIC. Is there somewhere we could go with this? Pressuring U.S. Travel Association to share instead of deep sixing the complaint details?

doober

I could be considered a "Kettle" as I don't fly often any more. It used to be every 6 weeks a RT to the left coast and back. I vowed not to fly unless absolutely necessary as I stood in my bare feet on a cold, wet carpet in Anchorage and watched an FA, arms and legs outstretched, being wanded and patted down.

Enough was enough, even back then. It's gone far beyond that now.