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-   -   Opt out of pat down - thought experiment (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/1146483-opt-out-pat-down-thought-experiment.html)

JoeBas Nov 10, 2010 4:17 pm


Originally Posted by Tucker501 (Post 15115605)
What happens if you are coming back from sun country and received a nice sunburn? If the patdown becomes too painful, do you just have to bear the pain? Or can they revert to using back of the hands and the wand?

"Do you have any sensitive areas?"

"Yes, my whole body. I just spent a week on a nude beach."

mamb0 Nov 10, 2010 10:47 pm


Originally Posted by janetdoe (Post 15115698)
Oooh - excellent test case - you can't have any more ionizing radiation, because you just received your annual dose, and patdown is excruciatingly painful. :D

Another one: a ftl friend just left the hospital after going through a severe case of epididymitis on a business trip. He desperatly wants to get home. Touching a certain area is incredibly painful. Basically they cannot patdown until they meet "resistance" because it causes pain and is not helping the healing process.
Will they choose to look at him in the nude? Or will he not be able to fly.

ORDinaryPax Nov 10, 2010 10:53 pm


Originally Posted by zefatcheese (Post 15115072)

Stop this GAY, "LEO," acronym: just say COPS!!!

:D

zefatcheese, what's so gay about this acronym? Is it necessary to disparage gay people to make your point about cops?

Combat Medic Nov 10, 2010 11:03 pm


Originally Posted by Tucker501 (Post 15115605)
What happens if you are coming back from sun country and received a nice sunburn? If the patdown becomes too painful, do you just have to bear the pain? Or can they revert to using back of the hands and the wand?

They continue to pat down women that are sobbing from the humiliation. I don't think they care about your (hypothetical) sunburn.

Scubatooth Nov 10, 2010 11:05 pm


Originally Posted by zefatcheese (Post 15115072)
I know cops. I'm very close with some.

That said, they're still idiots... lovable idiots :D

Stop this GAY, "LEO," acronym: just say COPS!!!

God, what a nation of tools we've become... what a fking joke.

TSO's are just traitors/gov't welfare junkies.

edit: A friend of mine from city college became a TSO, though: nice guy! :D

If you had any knowledge of law enforcement you would know why its put this way.

Its not gay its a appropriate term because not all LEOs are cops(aka normal police officer) some maybe agents, special agents, Detectives, Troopers, marshals and so on.

RichardKenner Nov 11, 2010 4:46 am


Originally Posted by janetdoe (Post 15115419)
From what I'm hearing, the crux is that the TSA must clear you before you can travel, but they refuse to clear you without conducting a warrantless search. So they put you in a position where you must either surrender your 4th Amendment rights or you cannot complete interstate travel without undue burden.

This has been discussed in numerous other threads. For some insight into the legal issues involved, I'd suggest Googling for the term "administrative search".

InkUnderNails Nov 11, 2010 6:21 am


Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 15118785)
This has been discussed in numerous other threads. For some insight into the legal issues involved, I'd suggest Googling for the term "administrative search".

But in my legal naivete, we may be at a point where the case law on administrative searches may not cover the exact situation involving the new techniques and that the courts need to be brought in determine the applicability. The fact that it is not specifically allowed is the cause of the ambiguity.

I also believe this strategy of using the courts will turn out very, very bad. Historically, they have pretty much allowed all extensions of administrative search powers for which the various government entities have asked.

Moving public opinion will be faster and more effective. And messy.

VH-RMD Nov 11, 2010 6:39 am

strange as may sometimes seem - judges do often consider what the public sentiment is, certainly the higher court judges do, and they are the ones that matter.

FliesWay2Much Nov 11, 2010 7:09 am


Originally Posted by janetdoe (Post 15114677)
In honor of national opt out day, I am more than willing to buy an airline ticket and opt out of an X-ray scan, but I don't really want to get groped. So what would happen if I also refused a pat down?

I guess in a nutshell, my question is, if someone wanted to make a 4th Amendment test case, what would be the script?

Please no smurf and thug comments!
I know there are good and bad people in the TSA, but I'm really interested in the Constitutional/legal aspects. I know there is a chance of some TSO or cop being an a$$hole. But assuming that everyone is polite and professional, and follows official (even if secret) TSA procedures, what is the most likely script for what would happen?

  • Would I have committed any crimes?
  • At what point is TSA allowed to detain me?
  • Can they take legal action against me or physically restrain me?
  • Can I ask for a lawyer?
  • What types of ID can they require me to provide?

If this has been discussed on another website or thread, I would appreciate a link. I would LOVE it if some of our resident TSA employees could shed some light on the subject.

Once again, I am looking for thoughtful discussion of creating a test case: legal issues and Constitutional rights, not a TSA-bashing thread.

Thanks very much for doing this. Unlike a most confrontations between screeners and citizens, you will have time to prepare for this one. Expect to be hassled by the cops and the TSA. With a little preparation, you can make sure the focus is on your protest and not on anything else, which will give the TSA the opportunity to deflect the discussion away from the primary purpose of your actions.

I offer some advice (not legal by any stretch of the imagination -- just "mission planning" advice):

1. In preparation for a confrontation with an airport cop, bring no other ID than the one you use for Blacklight Bob (ID Checker). Ideally, use a passport if you have one because it doesn't have your home address or any other identifying details. Erase the "emergency contact" info from your passport (if it's filled in) so they can't use that information against you. FYI, you can use your passport as an ID for domestic travel -- may of us do this routinely.

2. It would be great if you could bring a second person who could video record the encounter. There are always friends "seeing off" friends at or near a checkpoint. Just ask your friend to blend in and they should be OK.

3. Take a minimal amount of stuff through the checkpoint with you. Don't bring a wallet with anything critical in it -- DL, credit cards -- anything they could use to identify you beyond your passport. If the friend in #2 drove to the airport, you wouldn't even need a set of keys.

4. Keep aware of the information you have with you: passport, boarding pass. Do not answer any questions outside the bounds of the information you already have revealed.

5. Do not answer the question that wasn't asked. Absolutely do not admit that you are protesting the strip search/frisking. Do not admit to anything beyond what's on your ID and boarding pass. Do not admit that a friend is taping the incident. Do not admit you are on FT or that (maybe) you will post this on the internet.

6. Closely tied to #5, don't lie. This is infinitely worse than not answering questions. Not answering questions is your right. Lying isn't. Remember, however, that a cop can lie all that he/she wants.

7. Follow through by requesting a complaint form and/or take one with you. They will expect you to do this. If you don't, they might suspect that they have been "had."

Ultimately, this isn't hard. But, you must be mentally prepared, mentally tough, and keep your wits about you to remember to not deviate from the plan. You're going in with the upper hand and it's important that you keep on the offensive.

gobluetwo Nov 12, 2010 8:41 am

What would happen if I just stripped down to my skivvies and opted out? Would I still need a pat down? My boxer briefs are pretty form-fitting. Should I also turn my head and cough if they still insist on cupping me down there?

I'm actually serious about both (stripping and coughing). I can't imagine I'd get cited for indecent exposure, as I wouldn't be exposing anything indecent (not any more than at a pool or beach, anyway).

Or how about a woman stripping down to a sheer bra and thong? (hubba hubba, btw) Would she still be required to be touched at all?


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