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Originally Posted by able Rest time ends and crew duty time begins when the crew arrives at the gate (outstation) or operations (base). Both of these locations are inside security. During security screening the crew is still in their rest period. (How many freaking times does this need to be explained to you?) How polite you are sir / madam. Please moderate your tone. This is a debate not a shouting match. Who was it that stated earlier that rest time ends at report. Not at the Gate. Many airlines have their report stations Landside, some are not even in the Terminal or in some cases, off the airport. You ignore the possibility of the existence of other business models. NO airlines have their report stations anywhere but inside of security. This is largely due to the fact that no management team wants to burn duty time needlessly. Your talk of "other business models" is complete B.S. that you are pulling out of thin air. You have not the faintest idea of what you are talking about. I am not disputing the term 'minimum rest' is quoted in regulatory terms, however where the contractual terms exceed this crew quote e.g. min base time rest, min local rest etc etc. If you were to believe that crews have never refused to continue a flight after a div despite being legal after exceeding minimum legal rest but not reaching contractual rest time and citing it as reason not to operate....you would be wrong! As has been pointed out to you multiple times, transportation from the hotel and the time spent in the security line is clocked as part of the rest period. The duty clock starts when the crew arrives at the gate to operate the flight. Therefore, any extra time spent in security lines will come out of the rest time - typically nine hours. (It can be reduced but then a longer compensatory rest period is required within the next 24 hour cycle, which may cause further delays.) I understand that crew transport from the hotel being local in nature is part of the rest but I was curious about if this was always the case and so I asked a question, silly me! I would have been grateful for a specific answer without the hissy fit. This rest time can be legally reduced to eight hours. Factoring in transit time to the landside, transportation to and from the hotel, check in time, thirty minutes for a shower and time spent in security screening this typically allows for less than six hours of actual "rest." I believe 'Deadheaders' will not be in this position though. Pilot groups who have been able to improve upon this, scientifically proven inadequate rest, have done so to allow eight hours of actual sleep - not time on the beach. Therefore few of them are willing to waive their rest period and operate on six, five or four hours of sleep. Deadhead crews are no different from operating crews. They are often mid trip and therefore subject to the same rest requirements as the operating crew. But they are. They are not listed on the Gendec as part of the crew complement, they are not peforming an aviation function, nor are they critical to the departure of the flight they are boarding. They check in and are given boarding cards like the rest of the pax (or should be). The imperative that drives the necessity for them to board is primarily a commercial one not an operational one, in fact a deadhead crews own carrier is probably willing to offload a revenue pax, I believe, to accommodate the deadheadcrew and deal with the fall out later. Try and wrap your head around the fact that the aformentioned JFK-LAX-JFK example could very well be in the middle of a multiple day assignment. The deadheading crew flew the day before and has the same rest requirement as the crew assigned to fly. If they arrive earlier - to stand in line - then they are will have to sacrifice rest time or arrive late and delay the departure. Technically there is supposed to be a dedicated crew line but most airports instead allow passengers to utilize the crew line. Because of this crew members are instructed to cut to the head of the line - passengers technically should not even be there. If there was 'supposed' to be in any legal sense then there would be. There is not, in most cases. Op crew tend to use dedicated staff entries where they exist and staff priority lines where they are an alternate. This normally refers to airport staff and op crew. Deadheaders cannot use the dedicated staff entry and I think this is indicative in that they are sent instead to the pax lines. If they have a based ID then they can probably use the staff priority line if there is one. It's always amusing to hear passengers making up stories and presenting them as facts. |
Originally Posted by able
(Post 14963991)
It's not a debate because you are making things up, not countering with facts.
NO airlines have their report stations anywhere but inside of security. This is largely due to the fact that no management team wants to burn duty time needlessly. Your talk of "other business models" is complete B.S. that you are pulling out of thin air. You have not the faintest idea of what you are talking about. You are descending into a rant! FYI some of the largest airlines in the world have Landside report locations. International crew have to clear the controls and can't go anywhere else until they do. Once clear if they want to go to the report office then if it is Airside this is a bind to get back through security. I suppose they could always cut the line yet again! For logistical,centralised function, ground rent and a host of other reasons many have locations other than airside or in a Terminal. There may simply not be enough space in an airside area if it is a significantly large operation involving thousands of crew. There may be a seperate sterile area access point for the Op crew / airport staff and so time is not 'burnt!'. It is also easier, on Long haul / International trips where the crew stay for several days downroute, to get crew baggage checked and in in a Landside location via a dedicated baggage drop, rather than attempt to drag it all through security and wait ages for it to be checked / searched. All I can say to you is, try to understand this is a Global forum. Deadheaders are found everywhere in the world and have originated from everywhere in the world at other major airports. Think less about your own limited area. Again, you making things up to match your world-view. No facts in evidence supporting. Fact 1 above! And I base it mostly on my part of the world agreed...no less significant than yours! We are all equal here. Although there are apparently some who feel they are more equal than others Answered at least four times. You are not exactly a sponge. OK, if I tried explaining my field to you then how much do you think you will understand immediately without asking for some clarifications, but I feel it would mostly be a case of whoooosh in any event! I would not however, answer it a slightly different way each time e.g. rest ends at report / rest ends at gate / rest ends at, well it depends on layout. This is why clarification becomes neccessary in the light of different statements. If you want to treat us as know nothing pax who are 'amusing', then at least have the courtesy to not take away the right of us lesser mortals to seek clarifications. I just explained that they are in exactly this position. Deadheading crews are subject to the same duty and rest look-back requirements as operating crews. With respect to rest and duty the regulations see no difference between deadhead and operating. It would surprise me that Deadhead crew have any need to routinely have their rest period curtailed Wrong - they are. They are on the Gendec as crewing in exactly the same manner as the Op crew? Even if travelling on another carrier, which commonly happens. How odd! Wrong again - they are. Because they are on duty time? Subject to regulatory controls obviously e.g. no booze 8hrs before operating etc. But what function critical to the departure / flight are they performing sat in a pax seat reading the in flight magazine and having chicken or beef like everyone else? They 'intend' to perform an aviation function (several hours later) is more accurate. Being on duty time seems irrelevant. When they get to where they are going and in due course become operating crew they are actually performing the function. Wrong, yet again - As their downstream flights are dependent upon them, the airline can and will delay the flight that they are deadheading on in order to ensure their availability downstream. Oh yes, I am sure the same carrier will as it's in their commercial interest and they will even bump premium pax. Another (carrying other airline flying staff) will definitley NOT! They will get left behind....like any other pax A commercial necessity not an operational one? You don't make much sense. If the flight leaves without the deadheaders another airplane is going to be stuck at a gate without a crew - that's an operational problem. See above. The common denominator being they are pax, treated favourably by their own airline but not by another who hapens to carry them when deadheading (paxing)....commercial interest Yes they can. They are supposed to use the crew line, where available, or cut to the head of the passenger line. That word again....'supposed'. And the regulation is? Crew lines are by your own words, a rarity. Airport staff priority lanes are not. If there is a crew only lane then it would not impact on the OP query and so this fact is irrelevant. If it is that important for deadheaders or commuters to cut in then surely it woould be written down. Thus far I have not seen anything that refers to such a priviledge other than a load of 'supposed' and 'standard practice' and 'we are in the same boat as'. If you are referring to a SIDA badge than you are again incorrect. Very few crew members even have SIDA ("based ID") badges. Most only have their generic airline I.D. and this is all that is required to utilize the crew line, or cut ahead of a passenger line where crew lines don't exist. I was referring to an ID issued by the airport that the crew member in question is based at and using staff entry It's always amusing to hear passengers making up stories and presenting them as facts. For the record, I have no beef with Op crew having a crew line taking priority in a staff priority channel or even cutting in if there are no dedicated / priority options. But I cannot agree with the deadheaders angle which now seems to be going down as far as commuters (if I caught the drift of one poster right) who have elected to live away from their base (their choice...their problem!) |
Deadheaders have been instructed to go through security utilizing the same procedures as operating crew members. I am not going to continue to explain why as you seem to believe to know the "true" answers.
The little bits of paper you have attesting to your qualifications should be held tightly as they are the only evidence you will be able to produce. |
Originally Posted by able
(Post 14967222)
Deadheaders have been instructed to go through security utilizing the same procedures as operating crew members. I am not going to continue to explain why as you seem to believe to know the "true" answers.
The little bits of paper you have attesting to your qualifications should be held tightly as they are the only evidence you will be able to produce. PS At least I will have some evidence to hold. You are so funny ! Spending half your argument on insulting the poster on the other side of the debate. I can only guess at your level of educational attainment.
Originally Posted by PaulMSN
(Post 14922191)
Crew going through ahead of others is simply their perk -- worldwide -- just as elite passengers going ahead of others because of their status is a perk. Since it's not going to change, OP should just become a pilot and his worries are over.
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat
(Post 14964543)
All I can say to you is, try to understand this is a Global forum. Deadheaders are found everywhere in the world and have originated from everywhere in the world at other major airports. Think less about your own limited area.
With the single exception of you, every other poster on this thread had been discussing crew check in and dead heading procedures that are prevalent in the United States. I strongly suggest that you follow your own advice and "Think less about your own limited area." Cheers. |
Originally Posted by TWA884
(Post 14971553)
This may be a global forum, but the majority of the posters are North American based. The OP's complaint concerns his or her experience at a security checkpoint in Saint Louis, MO. Last time I passed through there in August, it was located in the United States of America, not in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
With the single exception of you, every other poster on this thread had been discussing crew check in and dead heading procedures that are prevalent in the United States. I strongly suggest that you follow your own advice and "Think less about your own limited area." Cheers. |
Deadheading technically means they are working or on the clock. But not sure if you knew that. Hope that helps. Sucks that you missed your flight.
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Originally Posted by Bear96
(Post 14923194)
Crew (deadheading or otherwise) are going to work. No one should have to wait in line with customers just to enter their place of employment.
What has been left out of this are commuters, who are flying NRSA to get from home to their base (because they choose not to live at their base) or from their base back home. There are more of those than there are crew deadheading. |
A few months ago, I flew AA out of JFK. The elite queue was about 100-meters long before it even made it to the roped part of the lines.
Who was bypassing that long queue of elites? Not just crew, but airline employees in civilian clothes with their IDs around their neck and their families , all of whom were carrying suitcases and obviously non-revving somewhere. At least 30 or 40 must have skipped to the front of the queue. BS. |
Originally Posted by Always Flyin
(Post 16345450)
A few months ago, I flew AA out of JFK. The elite queue was about 100-meters long before it even made it to the roped part of the lines.
Who was bypassing that long queue of elites? Not just crew, but airline employees in civilian clothes with their IDs around their neck and their families , all of whom were carrying suitcases and obviously non-revving somewhere. At least 30 or 40 must have skipped to the front of the queue. BS. |
hell, it may be anathema to most folks here, but I don't understand why there are even elite-status lanes, and why the federal government employees who administer them make a distinction between elite and regular status pax. Why are government employees using private companies' internal distinctions to affect their procedures? That shouldn't be any of TSA's concern. (The "expert" traveler lanes aren't a problem, as there's no credential necessary, they're self-selecting, and they increase throughput.)
I spread my miles around on multiple carriers, and don't fly twelve times a week, but my taxes and 9/11 security fees pay for the TSA just as much as the road warriors' do. |
Originally Posted by Vidiot
(Post 16395417)
hell, it may be anathema to most folks here, but I don't understand why there are even elite-status lanes, and why the federal government employees who administer them make a distinction between elite and regular status pax. Why are government employees using private companies' internal distinctions to affect their procedures? That shouldn't be any of TSA's concern. (The "expert" traveler lanes aren't a problem, as there's no credential necessary, they're self-selecting, and they increase throughput.)
I spread my miles around on multiple carriers, and don't fly twelve times a week, but my taxes and 9/11 security fees pay for the TSA just as much as the road warriors' do. Uh...no. :td: Look at the fees section of your airfare and you can figure out where the funding is coming from. As such, the "elite" actually are paying for the TSA (or their company/clients anyway). |
Originally Posted by Vidiot
(Post 16395417)
I don't understand why there are even elite-status lanes, and why the federal government employees who administer them make a distinction between elite and regular status pax. Why are government employees using private companies' internal distinctions to affect their procedures? That shouldn't be any of TSA's concern. (The "expert" traveler lanes aren't a problem, as there's no credential necessary, they're self-selecting, and they increase throughput.)
As such, no federal money is spent on line management or procedures leading up to the TDC. |
Originally Posted by FlyingUnderTheRadar
(Post 16395648)
It is known by many that the lines before the TDC are managed by the airports/airlines not the TSA. After the TDC PAX are all equal.
As such, no federal money is spent on line management or procedures leading up to the TDC. Still don't see the benefit in "elite" lanes, as they seem like wasted space that is much less-used than the other lanes. I'd much rather have them assigned by level of familiarity with the TSA carnival, and don't see much reason for the current system other than airlines' stroking their most frequent fliers. (not that that isn't a valid concern for the airlines, but it's an inefficient allocation of often-scarce terminal space and everyone else's time.) |
Originally Posted by Vidiot
(Post 16396029)
I'd much rather have them assigned by level of familiarity with the TSA carnival
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