T-the-B

I may well have missed your point. However; I think my comments do relate at least tangentially to yours. When TSA employees fail to follow their own rules (or perhaps more precisely their own standards) on things like NEXUS cards people here do complain vociferously. I believe they do this for two reasons: 1. They recognize that the whole ID check process has absolutely nothing to do with meaningful security. 2. The repeated failure of TSA employees to know their own policies and procedures demonstrates a glaring deficiency in training, management and monitoring. Were we to see air traffic controllers who routinely couldn't remember the proper flight separation guidelines or who couldn't follow proper radio procedures, I'm sure there would be vigorous complaints about that.

If a group of CAP students were to visit a tower and be given a chance to make a radio call would that be against the rules? I've been in a control tower as an invited guest and, while I didn't make any radio calls, I doubt it would have violated any rules were the controller to allow me to do so under his supervision. Did the controller break any rules or did he just cause embarrassment for his FAA supervisors?

RichardKenner

If you check out liveatc.net (you may have to register), you can find tapes of children talking to aircraft. One is the one that's been most reported (one tower, giving takeoff and "contact departure" instructions), but there is one on the ground position, with much more complex clearances, including taxi instructions. It's done quite professionally done and what impressed me the most was that the child started issuing some instruction and then said "disregard" just like a real controller would. The timing suggests that he wasn't fed every word there and knew what to do in that situation.

I'm very definitely in the "this is harmless" camp. Sure, I can come up with some scenarios where this could have resulted in a problem, but they rely on exceedingly unlikely sets of circumstances. I hope that once this quiets down the FAA does no more than give these folks a slap on the wrist.

videomaker

That may not work right now, since they've suspended visits until this is all sorted out.

I think all we can conclude is it didn't cause any harm in this case. If this kind of thing is allowed, what happens if the next kid goofs? There are just too many ways this could go wrong. And I don't want an elementary-school kid giving ATC instructions to any airplane I'm on.

It's also interesting to see that even the union is distancing itself from the controller.

And I agree with this from an Associated Press story:

The incidents suggest a casualness about rules that undermines safety, said Carol Carmody, a former National Transportation Safety Board member and former FAA official.

"If they don't follow fairly rigid procedures, they're going to make mistakes," Carmody said. "If you are in the safety business, you make a big deal out of anything like this because random events cause accidents."

N965VJ

With all the people getting up in arms over nothing, do you think another controller would do this again? Even then, if a kid made a mistake the controller would simply say disregard and relay the correct information.

videomaker

I hope not. But I'm amazed it happened at all.

Unless a plane started a takeoff roll based on bad instructions, or all kinds of other things that could go wrong. It's just not good procedure.

tev9999

So what is the allowable level of distraction for an air traffic controller? Reading the newspaper? Talking on the phone? Texting? Having lunch with the husband/wife/kid while on the radio?

Regardless of what activities he was doing, he was also babysitting while on the job. I think that is frowned upon in most workplaces.

RichardKenner

Hard to see how that would happen or that something bad would happen if it did. It's not like there are multiple planes on runways waiting to take off and the instruction could be given to the wrong one. If somebody (controller or kid) gave a plane further down the line a takeoff clearance, the response would be, in effect, "huh"? The other error would be a takeoff clearance before it should have been given. But seems a every unlikely "failure mode": how would it happen? And, if he did, starting a takeoff roll is hardly an irreversible step. Engines take time to spool up and planes accelerate slowly. If a bogus takeoff clearance were given and then withdrawn, I doubt the aircraft would get more than a couple of hundred feet, if that. And it's even harder to see how a "contact departure" could cause trouble.

I think the controller was being very conservative by having his child just give takeoff clearances and "contact departure".

Although I agree this isn't something that should be widely encouraged, I see absolutely no danger if it were done again in the same way. I do agree with the sentiment that "breaking rules" in safety-critical situations can promote an environment of carelessness, but it looks to me like this was done carefully and with an eye to aviation safety and not something that would promote such an environment.

videomaker

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. There's no place for kiddies giving out ATC instructions from the tower, IMO.

N965VJ

Here's another fun one: YVR controller makes marriage proposal

kokonutz

[raises hand]

If I had heard this on Ch. 9 I'd have thought, 'oooh, cool!' ^

Just like the pilots did.

Global_Hi_Flyer

Not true. Interested citizens and pilots/student pilots can get tours of most (not all) facilities. Gotta set it up in advance, but it can be done. I've been in several facilities, including NY Tracon, ISP, LGA, and EWR towers.

+1

kokonutz

Unfortunately, I fear that said access will be a victim of the namby-pamby emotional over reaction to this situation.

Global_Hi_Flyer

Yep... very unfortunate. Culture and climate of fear.

DoubleHaul

This is a huge mountain out of a molehill situation.

SHOCKED! Media pundits and "safety experts" notwithstanding, there is NOTHING, NADA, ZIP that a kid could have said under those circumstances that would have compromised safety.

Remember...these pilots know what is going on, and contrary to what is shown on some popular TV shows, they don't just blindly do what some voice on the radio tells them to - especially if it is a kid's voice!

Furthermore, like others have mentioned, even if the kid had somehow given a wrong takeoff clearance to a plane holding in a position where it would have been dangerous, the real controller could have been back on the horn with a "disregard" before the kid was even finished talking.

How many of these people that are so upset about this have ever been on either end of a pilot/controller radio communication? Or even listened to CH. 9 for that matter?

RichardKenner

Indeed. And the best proof of this is that the airline pilots, who should be the most upset if their safety was compromised, are showing their support for the controller. According to liveatc.net, quite a lot of pilots are signing off with "adios" as a way of showing support for the controllers. And there's a recording of DL 31 signing off and adding "thoughts going out to your co-worker there: I think it's BS what he's going through".