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-   -   article on ffdo's (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/1029287-article-ffdos.html)

goalie Dec 18, 2009 12:16 pm

article on ffdo's
 
http://www.the33tv.com/news/kdaf-arm...tory?track=rss (n.b. loads very slow so i quoted the whole article as opposed to a snippet)


Armed Pilots Prepare for Another Attack
New Secret Training Center Opens in Dallas
Walt MaciborskiThe 33 News
December 15, 2009

DALLAS, TX - In a giant warehouse in Dallas, airline pilots are preparing for another war in the skies. They have come here to train and get re-certified to carry a gun in the cockpit.

"We believe the threat is very much alive," said Richard Burt, special agent in charge of the Transportation Security Administration's flight programs division.

Terrorists targeted U.S. planes once and eight years after 9-11, these pilots are convinced they'll do it again

"Boom!" A cockpit door explodes open and a beautiful woman with long hair starts shooting at the co-pilot; the pilot in training must react in a split second to save the plane.

"Bang, bang, bang," the pilot in training, who can't be identified for security reasons, hit the woman in the leg and then the kill shot hit her under the arm. The instructor then stops the interactive video and critiques the pilot on how he could have reacted faster.

"Do I think the threat is still out there?" asked the pilot. "Absolutely I do. Absolutely!"

These pilots are training at a new secret facility in Dallas as a mandatory part of being a Federal Flight Deck Officer, or FFDO. The Dallas center was opened so pilots would have another option to get re-certified. Before this facility, pilots only had one center in New Jersey to get the training they needed. All of the pilots get their initial training at the Federal Law Enforcement Center in Artesia, New Mexico and must be re-certified every three to five years to bring their guns into the cockpit.

Pilots do this training on a volunteer basis. And, they do the training on their own dime and their own time. The airlines don't want to get involved with the program. Pilots say the airlines are worried about the liability. But, the training is intense and the pilots say they are not just a bunch of cowboys with guns in the cockpit.

"There's defensive measures, there's judgmental shooting and it makes them think, and respond, and develop what we call muscle memory so they'll know what to do," said Burt.

The goal here is to train pilots to basically fight in a closet and make sure their moves are second nature. Pilots learn close hand-to-hand combat and learn how to push a threat out of the cockpit so no one can take over the plane.

"It's real life, real world, very much what happened on that fateful day," said a pilot who lost a co-pilot and a good friend on 9-11. "It gets very personal and I'll never forget what they did. There's no doubt in my mind that they are still training, they are still developing new methods and adapting what they know about us to use that against us again."

And considering the TSA just accidentally leaked one of its own training manuals online with detailed security measures, some security experts say we just gave the terrorists our playbook to help them get a gun or explosives on board.

"Every year, on a quarterly basis, it seems there's another inspector general report or TSA report or media investigation showing just how easy it is to get these weapons past screeners if you're a determined investigator or terrorist," said former Homeland Security Inspector General Clark Ervin.

The Airline Pilots Security Alliance says air marshals only cover about three-percent of the flights, so chances are the only person to handle a threat would be an armed pilot.

"And that's my role -- to be the last line of defense," said one pilot. "I never want them to get onto our aircraft again and do what they did."
not wanting to get into the issue of should pilots be armed or not but what caught my eye was this from the article was this......


The Airline Pilots Security Alliance says air marshals only cover about three-percent of the flights, so chances are the only person to handle a threat would be an armed pilot.
i thought that information was 'sposed to be "secret" ;)

Boggie Dog Dec 18, 2009 12:29 pm


Originally Posted by goalie (Post 13013739)
http://www.the33tv.com/news/kdaf-arm...tory?track=rss (n.b. loads very slow so i quoted the whole article as opposed to a snippet)



not wanting to get into the issue of should pilots be armed or not but what caught my eye was this from the article was this......



i thought that information was 'sposed to be "secret" ;)

How many air marshalls would it take to cover any significant amount of daily commercial flights? I don't know the numbers but its somewhere around "bunches".

LoganTSO Dec 18, 2009 12:55 pm


Originally Posted by goalie (Post 13013739)
http://www.the33tv.com/news/kdaf-arm...tory?track=rssnot wanting to get into the issue of should pilots be armed or not but what caught my eye was this from the article was this......

i thought that information was 'sposed to be "secret" ;)

Maybe they polled their members on how many flights they fly were a FAM checks in with the crew?

SJCFlyerLG Dec 18, 2009 5:06 pm

So, let me get this straight: an FFDO can carry a loaded weapon into the cockpit, but his/her bags must be screened, and shoes must come off. Yep, this make a whole lot of sense. :rolleyes:

goalie Dec 18, 2009 5:23 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 13013811)
How many air marshalls would it take to cover any significant amount of daily commercial flights? I don't know the numbers but its somewhere around "bunches".

stop using scientific terms ;)


Originally Posted by LoganTSO (Post 13013963)
Maybe they polled their members on how many flights they fly were a FAM checks in with the crew?

iirc, they have to check in with someone from the crew either if they choose to pre-board or in the captain's briefing room as they need to know things like where they are sitting, the "secret word*" and of course, since this the "the g" we're talkin' 'bout, don't forget the infamous papewoik


*swordfish

Good Guy Dec 18, 2009 6:09 pm


Originally Posted by SJCFlyerLG (Post 13015372)
So, let me get this straight: an FFDO can carry a loaded weapon into the cockpit, but his/her bags must be screened, and shoes must come off. Yep, this make a whole lot of sense. :rolleyes:

I believe FFDO's bypass security like any other LEO.

LoganTSO Dec 18, 2009 6:57 pm


Originally Posted by Good Guy (Post 13015649)
I believe FFDO's bypass security like any other LEO.

Anyone who carries a gun and has been trained and certified in the use of discharging a firearm on board in aircraft bypass screening. FAMs, FFDOs, Federal LEOs, State & Local LEOs.

If you're not certified then that Glock or SIG of yours goes underneath your seat in the cargo hold and you fly unarmed.

Boggie Dog Dec 18, 2009 7:36 pm


Originally Posted by LoganTSO (Post 13015889)
Anyone who carries a gun and has been trained and certified in the use of discharging a firearm on board in aircraft bypass screening. FAMs, FFDOs, Federal LEOs, State & Local LEOs.

If you're not certified then that Glock or SIG of yours goes underneath your seat in the cargo hold and you fly unarmed.

So a LEO transporting a prisoner would have their firearm taken from them and transported in the cargo hold if they have not been trained and certified in the use of discharging a firearm on board an aircraft?

Ari Dec 18, 2009 7:36 pm


Originally Posted by Good Guy (Post 13015649)
I believe FFDO's bypass security like any other LEO.

That's what the 'redacted' SOP says. The one that is six versions old and so much has changed. :rolleyes:

Deeg Dec 18, 2009 8:12 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 13016038)
So a LEO transporting a prisoner would have their firearm taken from them and transported in the cargo hold if they have not been trained and certified in the use of discharging a firearm on board an aircraft?

There is an official training program for carrying a firearm on the plane. If the officer hasn't taken it, then s/he cannot fly armed.

NY-FLA Dec 21, 2009 8:54 am


Originally Posted by Good Guy (Post 13015649)
I believe FFDO's bypass security like any other LEO.


Originally Posted by Ari (Post 13016039)
That's what the 'redacted' SOP says. The one that is six versions old and so much has changed. :rolleyes:


They still do. (I get the sarcasm, Ari) I was recently watching the activity at a small airport where the exit and the entrance to the terminals are adjacent. FFDO (on a DL RJ, yet :rolleyes:) walks up the exit lane, shows credentials, then passes on through. (At some level this makes sense, but at that level, screening anyone that has control of the aircraft does not.)
And to counter all the paranoia oozing from the original article, I feel so much safer now that the US pilot who discharged his weapon in an AirBus on short final has been reinstated by an arbitrator. :rolleyes:

LoganTSO Dec 21, 2009 7:40 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 13016038)
So a LEO transporting a prisoner would have their firearm taken from them and transported in the cargo hold if they have not been trained and certified in the use of discharging a firearm on board an aircraft?

Originally Posted by Deeg (Post 13016165)
There is an official training program for carrying a firearm on the plane. If the officer hasn't taken it, then s/he cannot fly armed.


Yes, but more or less... most police depts have plenty of trained officers on call.

There was quite a few coming through a few weeks ago to flying NW for the Lakewood 4 funeral, pretty much all from the all the major greater Boston area cities.

Hell, there was a BC campus police officer that came through today. A campus police officer for Boston College... why he'd need to fly armed I don't know aside I guess from protecting BC sports teams?

Good Guy Dec 21, 2009 7:57 pm


Originally Posted by LoganTSO (Post 13032910)
Yes, but more or less... most police depts have plenty of trained officers on call.

There was quite a few coming through a few weeks ago to flying NW for the Lakewood 4 funeral, pretty much all from the all the major greater Boston area cities.

Hell, there was a BC campus police officer that came through today. A campus police officer for Boston College... why he'd need to fly armed I don't know aside I guess from protecting BC sports teams?

Why shouldn't a credentialed law enforcement officer fly armed? Especially if they have completed the "Flying Armed" course?

LoganTSO Dec 21, 2009 8:07 pm


Originally Posted by Good Guy (Post 13032992)
Why shouldn't a credentialed law enforcement officer fly armed? Especially if they have completed the "Flying Armed" course?

They should, they just need to do the training which many have. Therefore, most major police departments usually have an officer certified to carry on board an aircraft and therefore can escort a prisoner.

I just found Boggie's statement silly.

goalie Dec 22, 2009 8:58 am


Originally Posted by LoganTSO (Post 13032910)
Yes, but more or less... most police depts have plenty of trained officers on call.

There was quite a few coming through a few weeks ago to flying NW for the Lakewood 4 funeral, pretty much all from the all the major greater Boston area cities.

Hell, there was a BC campus police officer that came through today. A campus police officer for Boston College... why he'd need to fly armed I don't know aside I guess from protecting BC sports teams?

ok, you know me with my "tsa bashing" ;) but when it comes to my alma mater, "anything for security" :D (tho don't tell my friend eddie as he went to b.u. ;))


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