Avelo Airlines - Should I be concerned?
May 5, 2021, 10:43 am
#16
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There's a huge difference between not scheduling flights that you know won't be profitable (i.e. only using your existing capacity when you can deploy it profitably) and adding extra capacity that you know is going to sit idle 95% of the time.
May 8, 2021, 10:41 am
#18
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Any real life flight reports from FT?
l have one coming up in a week - curious if online check in works on the app, how they manage carryon size (we have backpacks exceeding their sizes but easily squishable) and seating with kids.
Going for in person checkin would mean pulling kids out of school midday and it's the opposite of convenience I expected when I booked flt from BUR...
l have one coming up in a week - curious if online check in works on the app, how they manage carryon size (we have backpacks exceeding their sizes but easily squishable) and seating with kids.
Going for in person checkin would mean pulling kids out of school midday and it's the opposite of convenience I expected when I booked flt from BUR...
May 9, 2021, 2:11 am
#19
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https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/i...to-launch.html
& particularly the comment"the next steps include securing additional long-term leases on aircraft where Play would pay for block time, or the operating time between departure and arrival."
So aircraft can effectively be leased part time, so not much use flying a route/schedule if not profitable.
May 9, 2021, 11:37 am
#20
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just read about Play
https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/i...to-launch.html
& particularly the comment"the next steps include securing additional long-term leases on aircraft where Play would pay for block time, or the operating time between departure and arrival."
So aircraft can effectively be leased part time, so not much use flying a route/schedule if not profitable.
https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/i...to-launch.html
& particularly the comment"the next steps include securing additional long-term leases on aircraft where Play would pay for block time, or the operating time between departure and arrival."
So aircraft can effectively be leased part time, so not much use flying a route/schedule if not profitable.
I didn't dispute that type of lease may be possible (although the article doesn't say that Play has secured them). But the terms of those leases that the airlines are pushing for are typically quite bad for lessors, because they're basically just a way for airlines to cut their costs right now while their revenues are in the toilet.
Lessors have their own costs, and those have to be covered. In the short term, airlines have some leverage if they have the ability to dump aircraft back on the lessors and force them to incur a bunch of costs. In the long term, if power by the hour is going to become common for airframes, as it has for engines, it's going to have to be at hourly rates that cover lessors' costs, which are going to be higher than what airlines are trying to get right now. That's especially the case for new leases.
What you seem to be ignoring is that there's still a substantial fixed cost to acquiring aircraft on those terms. There's typically a minimum lease payment, plus there is the upfront cost to configure the cabin, plus parking, plus some of the maintenance. It's not free to have millions of dollars worth of airplane sitting around all day.
The ULCC model is all about getting costs as low as possible. Having 1/6 of the fleet sitting around as a backup simply doesn't square with that model.
May 9, 2021, 4:52 pm
#21
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I didn't dispute that type of lease may be possible (although the article doesn't say that Play has secured them). But the terms of those leases that the airlines are pushing for are typically quite bad for lessors, because they're basically just a way for airlines to cut their costs right now while their revenues are in the toilet.
Lessors have their own costs, and those have to be covered. In the short term, airlines have some leverage if they have the ability to dump aircraft back on the lessors and force them to incur a bunch of costs. In the long term, if power by the hour is going to become common for airframes, as it has for engines, it's going to have to be at hourly rates that cover lessors' costs, which are going to be higher than what airlines are trying to get right now. That's especially the case for new leases.
What you seem to be ignoring is that there's still a substantial fixed cost to acquiring aircraft on those terms. There's typically a minimum lease payment, plus there is the upfront cost to configure the cabin, plus parking, plus some of the maintenance. It's not free to have millions of dollars worth of airplane sitting around all day.
The ULCC model is all about getting costs as low as possible. Having 1/6 of the fleet sitting around as a backup simply doesn't square with that model.
Lessors have their own costs, and those have to be covered. In the short term, airlines have some leverage if they have the ability to dump aircraft back on the lessors and force them to incur a bunch of costs. In the long term, if power by the hour is going to become common for airframes, as it has for engines, it's going to have to be at hourly rates that cover lessors' costs, which are going to be higher than what airlines are trying to get right now. That's especially the case for new leases.
What you seem to be ignoring is that there's still a substantial fixed cost to acquiring aircraft on those terms. There's typically a minimum lease payment, plus there is the upfront cost to configure the cabin, plus parking, plus some of the maintenance. It's not free to have millions of dollars worth of airplane sitting around all day.
The ULCC model is all about getting costs as low as possible. Having 1/6 of the fleet sitting around as a backup simply doesn't square with that model.
Am not sure if Allegiant bought all their mad dogs or leased some. Heard they bought some for $1m. They did park a lot of them every week when not required, esp on Tuesdays. Didn't suggest 1/6 of fleet lay idle, but perhaps 6th aircraft might do a lot less hours or 5th & 6th do bit less hours. There's also back of clock flying, eg. Alevo might do some red eyes BUR to HVN & back, meaning eg. 6th aircraft might do less flying during daylight hours & more say between 2200 & 0600, so there is always at least 1 spare aircraft. Am constantly amazed when people will fly to save a few bucks.
May 16, 2021, 1:41 pm
#22
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Avelo Airlines has scheduled its first flights, from Burbank, at the end of this month.
Coincidentally, I need to get to Bozeman, Montana, on a Sunday morning in August, and Avelo's lone outbound would get me there in time.
The nonstops from LAX all arrive in the afternoon, as do the SNA connections.
Base fare is $29; with a checked-bag and a seat assignment, $47.
I have never flown on a ULCC like Spirit or Allegiant, but (I think) I could hold my nose for a roughly 2 hours in the air.
Should I be seriously concerned about...
Maintenance?
Pilot credentials?
The airline ceasing operation (or changing routes) within 4 months?
Anything else?
Or is it too risky and would you just depart a day early from LAX or SNA on a non-ULCC and spend the night in Bozeman instead?
Coincidentally, I need to get to Bozeman, Montana, on a Sunday morning in August, and Avelo's lone outbound would get me there in time.
The nonstops from LAX all arrive in the afternoon, as do the SNA connections.
Base fare is $29; with a checked-bag and a seat assignment, $47.
I have never flown on a ULCC like Spirit or Allegiant, but (I think) I could hold my nose for a roughly 2 hours in the air.
Should I be seriously concerned about...
Maintenance?
Pilot credentials?
The airline ceasing operation (or changing routes) within 4 months?
Anything else?
Or is it too risky and would you just depart a day early from LAX or SNA on a non-ULCC and spend the night in Bozeman instead?
May 22, 2021, 12:15 am
#23
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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Not bad at all.
Their personal item sizer dimensions are much larger than what is stated on the website (iirc 18x14x8). Online checkin works fine.
Seats are firm but pitch seems OK for 1-2 hr flts (I am 6 ft tall). Our seats with kids were autoassigned as AB, AB without anyone in C so all sorts of comfort.
Very quick boarding and deplaning.
Delays may build up late in the day but I followed flight history and haven't seen any major delays.
No wifi, no precheck are the only negatives now.
Basically it's an awesome deal at current prices to go nonstop to many interesting destinations.
Their personal item sizer dimensions are much larger than what is stated on the website (iirc 18x14x8). Online checkin works fine.
Seats are firm but pitch seems OK for 1-2 hr flts (I am 6 ft tall). Our seats with kids were autoassigned as AB, AB without anyone in C so all sorts of comfort.
Very quick boarding and deplaning.
Delays may build up late in the day but I followed flight history and haven't seen any major delays.
No wifi, no precheck are the only negatives now.
Basically it's an awesome deal at current prices to go nonstop to many interesting destinations.
May 22, 2021, 1:45 am
#24
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Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 457
Not bad at all.
Their personal item sizer dimensions are much larger than what is stated on the website (iirc 18x14x8). Online checkin works fine.
Seats are firm but pitch seems OK for 1-2 hr flts (I am 6 ft tall). Our seats with kids were autoassigned as AB, AB without anyone in C so all sorts of comfort.
Very quick boarding and deplaning.
Delays may build up late in the day but I followed flight history and haven't seen any major delays.
No wifi, no precheck are the only negatives now.
Basically it's an awesome deal at current prices to go nonstop to many interesting destinations.
Their personal item sizer dimensions are much larger than what is stated on the website (iirc 18x14x8). Online checkin works fine.
Seats are firm but pitch seems OK for 1-2 hr flts (I am 6 ft tall). Our seats with kids were autoassigned as AB, AB without anyone in C so all sorts of comfort.
Very quick boarding and deplaning.
Delays may build up late in the day but I followed flight history and haven't seen any major delays.
No wifi, no precheck are the only negatives now.
Basically it's an awesome deal at current prices to go nonstop to many interesting destinations.
May 25, 2021, 5:27 am
#25
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern California/Los Angeles
Programs: Various
Posts: 2,778
I was on the first Bur-STS and then STS-BUR flight April 29. It’s a simple operation and seems fine, though basic in all aspects.
Beware that at BUR, Ticketing is at Terminal A, but Departure /Arrival gates are in Terminal B.
As of now, you need a paper boarding pass to clear TSA at all stations, even though you can get a pass emailed to your device. I didn’t try printing BO at home. NO TSA Pre, even if you have it.
Smooth boarding, as they charge more to carry on than check a bag; $40 bs $10. Seat spacing goes from “redonkulous” leg room on the extra space, to average on standard seats in the back. Beware that these planes are refurbished from another previous owner, so each plane not 100% Identical configuration/seat spacing. You pay for any add on amenity, including all seats and assignments (though minimal)
There is no seat back IFE, in seat power, or WiFi. Catering consisted of a sealed bag containing water/sani wipe/Lorna Dune cookie. No other options to buy or get.
First flight was 25% Avelo staff, 60% VIP, 15% Standard passengers. Mostly a lot of high five stuff amongst Avelo; service didn’t shine.
it’s mostly < 2 hr flights. Easy and cheap with a few kinks.
To those concerned about getting stuck and back up aircraft, I’ll add that beyond the 3 current 738, the arriving 737-7 will be based in HVN and serving East Coast areas. There is no transcon or midcon connecting these bases.
goid luck to them running this size aircraft/capacity on these routes.
Beware that at BUR, Ticketing is at Terminal A, but Departure /Arrival gates are in Terminal B.
As of now, you need a paper boarding pass to clear TSA at all stations, even though you can get a pass emailed to your device. I didn’t try printing BO at home. NO TSA Pre, even if you have it.
Smooth boarding, as they charge more to carry on than check a bag; $40 bs $10. Seat spacing goes from “redonkulous” leg room on the extra space, to average on standard seats in the back. Beware that these planes are refurbished from another previous owner, so each plane not 100% Identical configuration/seat spacing. You pay for any add on amenity, including all seats and assignments (though minimal)
There is no seat back IFE, in seat power, or WiFi. Catering consisted of a sealed bag containing water/sani wipe/Lorna Dune cookie. No other options to buy or get.
First flight was 25% Avelo staff, 60% VIP, 15% Standard passengers. Mostly a lot of high five stuff amongst Avelo; service didn’t shine.
it’s mostly < 2 hr flights. Easy and cheap with a few kinks.
To those concerned about getting stuck and back up aircraft, I’ll add that beyond the 3 current 738, the arriving 737-7 will be based in HVN and serving East Coast areas. There is no transcon or midcon connecting these bases.
goid luck to them running this size aircraft/capacity on these routes.
May 25, 2021, 4:55 pm
#26
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Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 457
I was on the first Bur-STS and then STS-BUR flight April 29. It’s a simple operation and seems fine, though basic in all aspects.
Beware that at BUR, Ticketing is at Terminal A, but Departure /Arrival gates are in Terminal B.
As of now, you need a paper boarding pass to clear TSA at all stations, even though you can get a pass emailed to your device. I didn’t try printing BO at home. NO TSA Pre, even if you have it.
Smooth boarding, as they charge more to carry on than check a bag; $40 bs $10. Seat spacing goes from “redonkulous” leg room on the extra space, to average on standard seats in the back. Beware that these planes are refurbished from another previous owner, so each plane not 100% Identical configuration/seat spacing. You pay for any add on amenity, including all seats and assignments (though minimal)
There is no seat back IFE, in seat power, or WiFi. Catering consisted of a sealed bag containing water/sani wipe/Lorna Dune cookie. No other options to buy or get.
First flight was 25% Avelo staff, 60% VIP, 15% Standard passengers. Mostly a lot of high five stuff amongst Avelo; service didn’t shine.
it’s mostly < 2 hr flights. Easy and cheap with a few kinks.
To those concerned about getting stuck and back up aircraft, I’ll add that beyond the 3 current 738, the arriving 737-7 will be based in HVN and serving East Coast areas. There is no transcon or midcon connecting these bases.
goid luck to them running this size aircraft/capacity on these routes.
Beware that at BUR, Ticketing is at Terminal A, but Departure /Arrival gates are in Terminal B.
As of now, you need a paper boarding pass to clear TSA at all stations, even though you can get a pass emailed to your device. I didn’t try printing BO at home. NO TSA Pre, even if you have it.
Smooth boarding, as they charge more to carry on than check a bag; $40 bs $10. Seat spacing goes from “redonkulous” leg room on the extra space, to average on standard seats in the back. Beware that these planes are refurbished from another previous owner, so each plane not 100% Identical configuration/seat spacing. You pay for any add on amenity, including all seats and assignments (though minimal)
There is no seat back IFE, in seat power, or WiFi. Catering consisted of a sealed bag containing water/sani wipe/Lorna Dune cookie. No other options to buy or get.
First flight was 25% Avelo staff, 60% VIP, 15% Standard passengers. Mostly a lot of high five stuff amongst Avelo; service didn’t shine.
it’s mostly < 2 hr flights. Easy and cheap with a few kinks.
To those concerned about getting stuck and back up aircraft, I’ll add that beyond the 3 current 738, the arriving 737-7 will be based in HVN and serving East Coast areas. There is no transcon or midcon connecting these bases.
goid luck to them running this size aircraft/capacity on these routes.
Many airlines operate on far less than 3 aircraft. Also am sure they can "acquire" another aircraft very quickly with so many 737s parked around the world doing SFA. Must be 1000s of them, with owners desperate to get them any work. I think I read somewhere Avelo are paying for aircraft leases by the hour, so no need to fly aircraft hard & they could probably line up many more aircraft like this. They just have to be careful they don't grow too fast.
Would not be surprised if they had trans-continent direct via somewhere like GJT esp in winter.
Denver is an awful airport, way too big & takes forever to get in & out of. (who really wants to spend 1 more second at any airport than they need to ? Den is efficient from airport operators point of view, but not from consumers & very poorly designed with all rental cars miles away.
Was looking to fly into Colorado from LA & going to a ski resort. Google maps said an hour longer by rd. GJT vs DEN, but with all the stuffing around & queues at DEN & then getting to rental cars & more queues, think the hour longer drive, will become 30 mins faster or more, with no stress. Bit like flying to EGE & getting rental there, but EGE fares are generally much more than DEN.
As long as Avelo doesn't try to take on big boys or Breeze, they should do very well, with costs much lower than existing operators. Domestic airfares in USA seem very high in USA, cf. Australia, probably due to all the consolidation that should never have been allowed. USA must have the dodgiest politicians in the western world. USA where they have the best pollies money can buy.
Last edited by OZFLYER86; Jun 22, 2021 at 7:20 am
May 25, 2021, 9:31 pm
#27
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Also am sure they can "acquire" another aircraft very quickly with so many 737s parked around the world doing SFA. Must be 1000s of them, with owners desperate to get them any work.
I think I read somewhere Avelo are paying for aircraft leases by the hour, so no need to fly aircraft hard & they could probably line up many more aircraft like this.
Jun 2, 2021, 9:09 pm
#28
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Did another RT over memorial day - flights much busier but still we managed to secure 2x3 for four of us both ways.
Auto seat assignment definitely keeps groups together (not sure if due to kids or not).
Outbound was ontime return delayed by 1 hr.
More larger backpacks - I have not seen any sizer enforcement so far.
Grab those cheap fares while you can.
Auto seat assignment definitely keeps groups together (not sure if due to kids or not).
Outbound was ontime return delayed by 1 hr.
More larger backpacks - I have not seen any sizer enforcement so far.
Grab those cheap fares while you can.
Jun 4, 2021, 8:14 am
#30
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Posts: 1,283
HVN and BDL are very different markets. BDL is Hartford and Western CT plus Springfield and Western MA and all points north. HVN will be able to pull from the suburban NYC market plus the I-95 "Hedge Fund" corridor. While it will compete with BDL, I suspect that it will compete more with HPN. It could also pull a few flyers from PVD.
