Huge expansion of East African airline business

Old Jan 30, 2019, 10:08 pm
  #16  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: DXB
Programs: TK Elite Plus
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by flying_blue_white_red
AF & KL cover very well most of the region. Apart from ADD/LUN/HRE, which routes, do you think, can not be served through codeshares?
Juba? Khartoum? Bujumbura or Lilongwe?
Well, AF/KL without KQ as you said will have no connections to ADD, which is now becoming the busiest airport in Africa. But if that happens, ET will probably be quick to do a direct route to AMS. Either way, I'd be surprised if they don't add AMS within a few years. Too many people are already tired of missed connections in NBO and would rather fly ET. Including myself.
That aside, the issue is with intra-African traffic. How do you fly Skyteam within Africa then? That is really the cash cow for KQ if I am not mistaken.
Goaguy is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 3:47 am
  #17  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,351
Originally Posted by Goaguy
Well, AF/KL without KQ as you said will have no connections to ADD, which is now becoming the busiest airport in Africa.
But it is becoming one of the busiest airport in Africa because of ET and pax transferring there, not because of the importance of ADD as a destination, no? If so, it is not a particularly important airport for AF/KL to serve. It is significant, in this respect, that apart from a single LH flight, no European airlines serves ADD, not even the former colonial power. By contrast, there are flights to NBO by LH, LX and BA in addition to AF and KL. IMO, that speaks volumes of the relative importance of both destinations.


Too many people are already tired of missed connections in NBO and would rather fly ET. Including myself.
I take your point but, while NBO might not be the most wonderful airport in the world and KQ's lounges are not top of the class either, I would take it and them anyday in preference to the ADD zoo and the awful ET lounges.

How do you fly Skyteam within Africa then? That is really the cash cow for KQ if I am not mistaken.
The fact that it is a cash cow for KQ does not necessarily mean that it is important for the other ST airlines. It is important for them only if KQ being a member of ST attracts to ST passengers who would otherwise go elsewhere so that the intra-African traffic with KQ generates ST loyalty that goes to AF, KL, DL, etc... when flying in and out of Africa with would not otherwise come their way.

With ET next door member of *A and RAM soon to join Comair as a OW airline, there is a plausible argument that it is important for ST to keep an African airline. But it is nonetheless difficult for outsiders to evaluate how much the presence of KQ contributes to directing traffic towards other ST airlines.

Last edited by NickB; Jan 31, 2019 at 3:58 am
NickB is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 6:11 am
  #18  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Originally Posted by stimpy
Wasn't that how most all of the worlds top airlines began? Entirely financed by government?
Originally Posted by B747-437B
Yes, but its a different environment today.
And that changing environment necked any number of national champions.


PanAm, anyone? TWA?


Johan
johan rebel is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 6:23 am
  #19  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,352
Originally Posted by Goaguy
Either way, I'd be surprised if they don't add AMS within a few years.
There's the small matter of slots.

AMS is at the maximum 500,000 per annum slot limit, and the goverment mediator who proposed a small increase to 510,000 has just thrown in the towel, as there wasn't a chance in hell that the parties at the table would reach an agreement.

Unused AMS slots are as rare as hen's teeth.

Johan
Goaguy likes this.
johan rebel is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 12:34 pm
  #20  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: Flying Blue, Diamond Club
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by NickB
until they accumulate so much debt that the nation no longer wants to underwrite them and they are left to rot and ultimately fail?
In Rwanda, the nation belongs to errrm, is represented by Paul Kagame his family and his friends through Crystal Ventures Ltd
He will eventually sell them before stepping down or being ousted!

Last edited by flying_blue_white_red; Jan 31, 2019 at 12:40 pm
flying_blue_white_red is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 2:43 pm
  #21  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: Flying Blue, Diamond Club
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by NickB
the awful ET lounges.
Food buffet at ET Cloud Nine Lounge is much much better than any KQ lounges at NBO though!
B747-437B likes this.
flying_blue_white_red is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 7:09 pm
  #22  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NBO, MEL
Programs: QR Platinum, TK Elite
Posts: 1,353

Kenya Airways to leave Skyteam?


https://www.businesstraveller.com/bu...687f-162879449

Interesting read.
roadwarriorafrica is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 11:10 pm
  #23  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Four Seasons Contributor BadgeMandarin Oriental Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
Yeah I guess if they leave ST but keep the same relationship with AF/KL as a JV that makes sense too.

Is it a coincidence that KQ just announced they are going back to FCO this summer after a 7 year absence?
stimpy is offline  
Old Jan 31, 2019, 11:29 pm
  #24  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NBO, MEL
Programs: QR Platinum, TK Elite
Posts: 1,353
KQ are playing darts wearing an eye mask from the J amenity kit. They've lost direction, purpose, and professionalism.
B747-437B likes this.
roadwarriorafrica is offline  
Old Feb 1, 2019, 4:05 am
  #25  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,637
Originally Posted by roadwarriorafrica
KQ are playing darts wearing an eye mask from the J amenity kit. They've lost direction, purpose, and professionalism.
I think KQ has a major three-way internal conflict ongoing between the shareholder (it is effectively majority owned by Government now following the conversion of debt to equity last year), the board, and the management team (more specifically the CEO and his loyalists). That is hampering their ability to develop, and deliver on, a coherent strategy.
B747-437B is offline  
Old Feb 1, 2019, 4:07 am
  #26  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,637
Originally Posted by johan rebel
And that changing environment necked any number of national champions.
Everyone wants to be the next Ethiopian Airlines, but aren't willing to spend the 40+ years of capacity building that it took Ethiopian to reach the heights they are at now.
B747-437B is offline  
Old Feb 1, 2019, 4:10 am
  #27  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,637
Originally Posted by NickB
I take your point but, while NBO might not be the most wonderful airport in the world and KQ's lounges are not top of the class either, I would take it and them anyday in preference to the ADD zoo and the awful ET lounges.
I'm the exact opposite. I actively seek to avoid Nairobi in favour of Addis. The passenger experience (especially if you are *G or in Cloud Nine) on Ethiopian is significantly better than on Kenya Airways, both on ground and in the air. And ET blows KQ out of the water in terms of reliability. I can't even remember the last time I had a KQ trip that wasn't affected by a delay, cancellation or other hiccup.
W126Pilot likes this.
B747-437B is offline  
Old Feb 1, 2019, 4:56 am
  #28  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Four Seasons Contributor BadgeMandarin Oriental Contributor Badge
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Seat 1A, Juice pretty much everywhere, Mucci des Coins Exotiques
Posts: 34,339
Originally Posted by B747-437B
I can't even remember the last time I had a KQ trip that wasn't affected by a delay, cancellation or other hiccup.
Maybe route specific? For me KQ is 100% reliable on the EBB route that I take often. And for me the lounges at NBO are perfectly suitable. Good seats, WiFi, drinks and adequate food. I'll be in ADD in a couple of weeks to compare, but when the ET 737 ran off the runway at EBB a month ago it was not a great experience for the passengers.

Management issues aside, we all have our experiences.
stimpy is offline  
Old Feb 1, 2019, 5:11 am
  #29  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,637
Originally Posted by stimpy
Maybe route specific? For me KQ is 100% reliable on the EBB route that I take often.
Actually, I dropped KQ because of numerous poor experiences on the EBB route in particular. They would invariably cancel one or the other of the morning flights at short notice, which meant missed connections out of EBB and later arrivals into EBB. We moved a fairly large volume of EBB-JNB/DXB traffic away from KQ to WB/ET because of this unreliability over the last couple years.
B747-437B is offline  
Old Feb 1, 2019, 5:44 am
  #30  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,351
Originally Posted by B747-437B
I'm the exact opposite. I actively seek to avoid Nairobi in favour of Addis. The passenger experience (especially if you are *G or in Cloud Nine) on Ethiopian is significantly better than on Kenya Airways, both on ground and in the air.
In what way is ET better in the air? I do not have much experience with them, having only flown them once (in J) but the food was OK but nothing special and certainly no better than KQ nor did I find the cabin crew anything special either. They were pleasant enough but so are the KQ crews IME. That said, given my lack of experience of ET, I am happy to defer to those with greater experience.

In ADD, they sent me to the *A G lounge. It had all the charm, elegance and overcrowding of a bus station and deeply uninspiring food and drink (I ended up just having some water), to the point that I wondered whether iI would have made that much difference in terms of comfort and amenities to just stay outside. Fair enough if the Cloud 9 lounge is on a different planet in terms of comfort and quality of catering.

And ET blows KQ out of the water in terms of reliability. I can't even remember the last time I had a KQ trip that wasn't affected by a delay, cancellation or other hiccup.
Yeah, the chopping and changing of the timetable can be a pain, although I have not yet experienced much last minute delays and cancellations as such (I have jinxed it now having said that, haven't I? ).
NickB is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.