Ethiopian fifth freedom flight

Old Sep 10, 2015, 5:26 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by B747-437B
You are flat out wrong about this. There is no practical way to transition directly between Omani and Somali airspace other than via UB400/UB403/UB404/R401 airways, all of which run through Yemeni airspace. The only alternative is to go into Mumbai FIR and then cut back to Mogadishu FIR, which is a detour of over 500nm.

At this very moment, there are scheduled flights from Emirates, FlyDubai, Etihad, Kenya Airways, Ethiopian and OmanAir flying in Yemeni airspace.
The NOTAM calls for the following:
FDC 5/5575 (A0019/15) ZZZ - SECURITY - UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FLIGHT
PROHIBITION FOR THE SANAA FLIGHT INFORMATION REGION (OYSC FIR)
ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS IN THE SANAA FLIGHT INFORMATION REGION (OYSC FIR), EXCLUDING
THAT AIRSPACE EAST AND SOUTHEAST OF A LINE DRAWN DIRECT FROM KAPET (163322N
0530614E) TO NODMA (152603N 0533359E), THEN DIRECT FROM NODMA TO PAKER (115500N
0463500E),
BY THE PERSONS DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH A BELOW ARE PROHIBITED UNTIL
FURTHER ADVISED DUE TO THE POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION CREATED BY THE RISKS
TO U.S. CIVIL AVIATION FROM ONGOING MILITARY OPERATIONS, POLITICAL INSTABILITY,
VIOLENCE FROM COMPETING ARMED GROUPS, AND THE CONTINUING TERRORISM THREAT
FROM EXTREMIST ELEMENTS.
I'm no airman nor do I carry a GPS device when I travel. However, having looked up each of the waypoints listed above in the NOTAM excerpt, I can tell you that today the flights are avoiding Yemeni Airspace and following a path that is consistent with the restrictions and exceptions as illustrated by today's ET601 from ADD to DXB.

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/ai...t-arf/#762f0ee

The listed waypoints are plotted in the maps below:
http://opennav.com/waypoint/MU/KAPET
http://opennav.com/waypoint/YE/NODMA
http://opennav.com/waypoint/SO/PAKER

Previously, while there is lacking coverage on flightradar24, flights to DXB appeared to fly directly over Yemen and appear on radar in the southeastern region of Saudi Arabia (unfortunately historical data doesn't go as far back as pre-Yemen airspace closure.)

Flights to RUH, KWI, DMM all appeared to go due East over Djibouti then over Yemen before appearing within Saudi Arabian terriroty until the time of airspace closure. Now, flights to these are best illustrated by today's flight to DOH which sees the aircraft flying over Sudan circumventing Eritrea.

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/ai...t-aqp/#762f116

It is worth noting that during the early days of the Yemen airspace closure, flights to DXB and MCT also flew over Sudan, Jeddah, Riyadh before approaching over the Persian Gulf. Flights to Delhi even made technical stops at Jeddah (these were B738s and at times B752s.)
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Old Sep 10, 2015, 10:49 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by ETStar
The NOTAM calls for the following:
FDC 5/5575 (A0019/15) ZZZ - SECURITY - UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FLIGHT
PROHIBITION FOR THE SANAA FLIGHT INFORMATION REGION (OYSC FIR)
ALL FLIGHT OPERATIONS IN THE SANAA FLIGHT INFORMATION REGION (OYSC FIR), EXCLUDING
THAT AIRSPACE EAST AND SOUTHEAST OF A LINE DRAWN DIRECT FROM KAPET (163322N
0530614E) TO NODMA (152603N 0533359E), THEN DIRECT FROM NODMA TO PAKER (115500N
0463500E),
BY THE PERSONS DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH A BELOW ARE PROHIBITED UNTIL
FURTHER ADVISED DUE TO THE POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION CREATED BY THE RISKS
TO U.S. CIVIL AVIATION FROM ONGOING MILITARY OPERATIONS, POLITICAL INSTABILITY,
VIOLENCE FROM COMPETING ARMED GROUPS, AND THE CONTINUING TERRORISM THREAT
FROM EXTREMIST ELEMENTS.
That's not the closure of Yemeni airspace to all commercial aviation:

A. APPLICABILITY. THIS NOTAM APPLIES TO: ALL U.S. AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS; ALL PERSONS EXERCISING THE PRIVILEGES OF AN AIRMAN CERTIFICATE ISSUED BY THE FAA, EXCEPT SUCH PERSONS OPERATING U.S.-REGISTERED AIRCRAFT FOR A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER; AND ALL OPERATORS OF AIRCRAFT REGISTERED IN THE UNITED STATES, EXCEPT WHERE THE OPERATOR OF SUCH AIRCRAFT IS A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER.
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Old Sep 10, 2015, 11:05 pm
  #18  
 
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I don't know how any reasonable person could claim that an average arrival time delay of 64 minutes and a maximum delay of 182 minutes is acceptable. That's the Expert Flyer (and Flightstats) data for DUB to LAX on ET.

Flightstats rates this routing "very poor" based on on-time performance, the worst possible rating (0 stars out of 5). It says,

This flight has an average delay of 69 minutes with a standard deviation of 41.01 minutes. Statistically, when taking into consideration sample size, standard deviation, and mean, this flight has delay performance characteristics better than 0% of other flights.
The DUB to IAD/YYZ routes are rated "average" (1.5 stars). The IAD to ADD route is rated "average" (1.7 stars). The LAX to DUB route is rated "good" (4.4 stars). The DUB to ADD route is rated "poor" (1.2 stars). The YYZ to ADD route is rated "average" (2.0 stars).

Last edited by Sabasi; Sep 11, 2015 at 12:33 am
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 12:44 am
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by Sabasi
The airways B747-437B listed are suggestive, not mandatory. Deviations do occur. Aside from that, there are plenty of aviation waypoints off the coast of Yemen to construct a commercial aviation routing, including IMKAD, NODMA, RIGAM, ORBAT, XANLO, PAXED, SOKEM, AMBOD, SEPRO, and MIXAN.
Three comments (at the risk of taking this thread completely off topic).

a) It is mandatory for UAE operators to use B400/UB403/B404/R401 exclusively when in OYSC FIR. No deviation is permitted. Above restrictions in place since 31MAY15. Operators from other states may have different restrictions, but for the most part these airways are the only ones in use except for traffic actually originating/terminating in OYSC FIR (which has its own set of issues with permits).

b) IMKAD-NODMA-RIGAM-ORBAT-XANLO-PAXED-SOKEM-AMBOD-SEPRO-MIXAN can be paraphrased as IMKAD B400 RIGAM P751 MIXAN. The use of P751 is restricted presently by pretty much every major aviation insurer, if not by the various aviation authorities and most importantly the coalition forces that control the airspace.

c) The standard routing used nowadays by ET for Middle East routes through OYSC FIR is IMKAD B400 RIGAM B404 DEMGO and then PAKER ZIZAN OKTOB and onwards into HAAA FIR. That skirts Sanaa and Mogadishu FIR boundary.
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 12:51 am
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by ETStar
I'm no airman nor do I carry a GPS device when I travel. However, having looked up each of the waypoints listed above in the NOTAM excerpt, I can tell you that today the flights are avoiding Yemeni Airspace and following a path that is consistent with the restrictions and exceptions as illustrated by today's ET601 from ADD to DXB.

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/ai...t-arf/#762f0ee
I don't think you realise that Yemeni airspace extends far further out over the water than that, mainly due to Yemen's control of Socotra. The path for ET601 you show is actually a routing of B404 RIGAM B400 HAI R401 ANVIX and then into the BUBIN hold. The entire section of DEMGO B404 RIGAM B400 IMKAD is in Yemeni airspace.
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 2:41 am
  #21  
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it's days like this that I'm glad we have no moderator in here!

It feels like we've got Sabasi trying to run ET down, while ETStar does his/her level best to build them up, with B747-etc acting as the referee

Guys, I do think that B747 has some actual current experience of deciding how civilian aircraft route around this region...
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 3:01 am
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by Stewie Mac
Guys, I do think that B747 has some actual current experience of deciding how civilian aircraft route around this region...
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 3:56 am
  #23  
 
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I have been accused of being ET's greatest defender and now its greatest denigrator. There is a middle ground, even if some would never believe it.

Originally Posted by B747-437B
I don't think you realise that Yemeni airspace extends far further out over the water than that, mainly due to Yemen's control of Socotra. ... The entire section of DEMGO B404 RIGAM B400 IMKAD is in Yemeni airspace.
Maybe. Maybe not. The Yemen-Somalia/Somaliland maritime boundary has not been established by agreement. But it will probably look something like this:
http://www.marineregions.org/eezdetails.php?eez_id=47
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 6:28 am
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by Sabasi
Maybe. Maybe not. The Yemen-Somalia/Somaliland maritime boundary has not been established by agreement. But it will probably look something like this:
http://www.marineregions.org/eezdetails.php?eez_id=47
No maybe. The maritime boundary is irrelevant. The FIR boundary between Yemen and Somalia is very clearly denoted by ICAO and that section falls within OYSC FIR and is Yemeni airspace.
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 11:21 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by Sabasi
Not sure what "stretch their fleet to the limit" means. What ET DOES do is match its aircraft and routes to the demand.
correct, but what i think the op meant was that et doesn't have spares, and that they would turn an aircraft at bare minimum instead of maybe giving it a buffer. which ET does do. tons of late inbounds outta ADD.
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 10:03 pm
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by B747-437B
No maybe. The maritime boundary is irrelevant. The FIR boundary between Yemen and Somalia is very clearly denoted by ICAO and that section falls within OYSC FIR and is Yemeni airspace.
A country's airspace rarely equals an FIR. I would love to see the ICAO try to dictate to the US, China, or Russia the extent of its airspace.

Maybe use more care in your terminology when discussing FIRs versus national airspace.

Last edited by Sabasi; Sep 11, 2015 at 10:14 pm
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Old Sep 11, 2015, 10:05 pm
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by phbl
correct, but what i think the op meant was that et doesn't have spares, and that they would turn an aircraft at bare minimum instead of maybe giving it a buffer. which ET does do. tons of late inbounds outta ADD.
How do you know that's the cause of late departures out of ADD?

Last edited by Sabasi; Sep 12, 2015 at 12:46 am
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Old Sep 12, 2015, 12:09 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by Sabasi
Maybe use more care in your terminology when discussing FIRs versus national airspace.
I'm well aware what terminology I am using. The section referred to above falls both within Yemeni national airspace as well as OYSC FIR. If in doubt, try to fly there without a Yemeni overflight permit and see what happens.
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Old Sep 12, 2015, 12:46 am
  #29  
 
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How do you define "Yemeni national airspace" when there is (as of now) no legal demarcation of that airspace? Since you route commercial aviation in the Middle East, surely you have a definition.

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Old Sep 13, 2015, 4:32 am
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by Sabasi
Middle East airlines have been avoiding Yemeni airspace for years.

Flights to IAD (or LAX) via DUB are almost always seriously delayed. The time is only occasionally made up in flight.
Originally Posted by Sabasi
How do you define "Yemeni national airspace" when there is (as of now) no legal demarcation of that airspace? Since you route commercial aviation in the Middle East, surely you have a definition.

You used the term first - so you must have thought the term has some meaning and should know what the definition is.
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