Kimpton stealth devaluations?
 

Longtime lurker and Kimpton IC member here. I've voiced my frustrations on a few Inner Circle issues a number of times to folks at HQ, but I'm wondering what the FT opinions are on two things that I have noticed over the last 6-8 months: 1) the sudden difficulty in redeeming free night rewards; 2) the devaluation of the welcome amenity.

Has anyone noticed a dramatic drop in availability for award night redemptions? Over the last few months, I have been stymied in all attempts to book weekend redemptions, with only mid-week off-peak redemptions available. My first sense of this was when Canary Hotel's complimentary new hotel redemption was blacked out for months and months at a time, save for a Tuesday night here and there (I did never cash in on that night). When trying to book a reward night at Canary, the situation was exactly the same. No availability. Then, there was the new Amara Resort, which was only listed as a complimentary night for six months (in the winter when temps are low and none of the pools were open).

More recently, I have been unable to find availability at a number of properties--last minute or three months out, I still get nothing. Given that there is no way to check for availability online, this has led to enormous frustration on my end.

In talking to a number of folks at the individual hotels and elsewhere, the common refrain is that the increase in the number of InTouch members has led to a corresponding increase in redemptions. But, because there is a limit (which no one seems to know exactly) on how many of a hotel's rooms can be redeemed on rewards, it has become exceedingly difficult to actually use the free nights that we've earned.

Kimpton's T&Cs allow them latitude to do refuse availability in a totally opaque fashion; the T&Cs are vague to the point of meaninglessness. While they claim to offer no blackout dates, this is a farce when availability is so low, and there are now so many members seeking redemptions. I joked to a friend that Kimpton free nights were fast becoming the SkyPesos of the hotel world, to which he responded, "at least Delta is transparent about their lack of availability online." There is an argument to be made that Kimpton's current free nights redeeming structure is too generous, and I would not disagree with that. However, I would also argue that being loyal to Kimpton comes with significant costs (in terms of: a) generally higher room rates; b) lack of free breakfast; c) limited availability of hotels; d) lack of aspirational redemptions), and that there is a need for the chain to offer a program that is simple and lucrative enough to lure business away from other properties. It is hard to justify staying at a Kimpton hotel at a +$50 or +$75/night rate that is 1mi away from a conference when the loyalty benefits and service are either barely equal to or inferior to SPG/Hyatt/etc.

The second thing that I have noticed in practice is the implementation of the official devaluation of the welcome amenity. The amenity was a big reason for chasing IC, as the personalization and selection was a big bonus over Hyatt's more standardized options (which are delivered perfectly 99% of the time). Late last year, there was a change to the terms to more clearly emphasize: "two of your favorite snacks or drinks delivered upon your arrival." This is a radical shift. Before, you could expect at least one item from each of the three categories to be delivered. In recent stays, I have received only one item plus waters--and it is often delivered very late and is not what I asked for (in one case, it was specifically what I said I did not want). The Raid the Bar does partially make up for this, but I think the net is negative.

Overall, I think it's great that Kimpton has expanded the number of hotels on offer, and I still think they have a great set of properties. I am wholly unconvinced that there is an institutional focus on loyalty/business travel. In fact, I see movement to chip away at the few comparative advantages that the program had vs. the 'big boys.' I think it is entirely possible that my business is not valued/wanted by Kimpton, and in that case, I look forward to moving the remaining sliver of my business elsewhere. While, there have long been rumblings of major changes in the program, I have heard nothing concrete. I'm managing my expectations...

My understanding was that IC reward nights used to be redeemable for any hotel, any night, as long as a room was available for sale (barring huge things like World Series, Super Bowl, etc). In fact, a year or so ago I was unable to use a non-IC reward night (that I earned before becoming IC) but was able to use an IC reward night for the same night.

It seems that they've stealthily put capacity controls on IC rewards too, without telling anyone.

Would love to get a straight answer out of Kimpton on this...

(I've also noticed a lot less beer and a lot more bottled water as the amenity. Which is ridiculous, because I do not use or want bottled water. The US is blessed with clean and safe running water; we should drink it!)

When combined with the minibar issues (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other...bar-items.html), and Kimpton's generally slow and unreliable wifi compared to other hotels targeting business travelers, I'm very much reconsidering my loyalty.

Two years of IC and dwindling downstream during 2014. It was fun, but its time to move on. I think they met their objectives filling the IC ranks and it is logical to expect changes.

This is literally the only reason I kept IC for three years. I gave away all my free days to family and friends when they came into town, because I don't want to ever have to play the upgrade game and would rather just always buy the room I want. I remember the first time we stayed at a Kimpton, which was after a status match to IC. It was like walking in to find a bounty of snacks and a bottle of wine, all of which we really wanted to enjoy. Then slowly I learned that some hotels didn't even bother to try, while others at least met most of our requests well. At some hotels they have left us two bottles of water and a small plate of mixed fruit. At the Argonaut they just gave us a fruit plate and a bottle of the wine we drank each night for wine hour. If I wanted more I'd just go downstairs and drink it. Since we regularly get to hotels a bit late, by the time we'd call down at some other hotels they'd say there wasn't much food they could even get us at the time.

I'm surprised you can use the raid the bar. I was specifically told a little over a year ago that ICs could not use this unless they chose it as one of their two or three items. Perhaps the move to two items made the raid the (mini-)bar included for all ICs.

The lack of caring started driving us to only book at the hotels that actually cared about IC members and eventually we just weren't staying enough at Kimptons to make it again. I didn't even meet the 3 stays in 4 months requalifying offer I got.

It's not about the snacks. It's about not meeting expectations the hotel chain itself has set.

Hi Flyertalkers,

You’re right - booking reward nights in some of our cities has become challenging lately due to a huge increase in demand. Like all other loyalty programs, we have always had a certain amount of reward inventory that we make available each night. This isn’t new even for Inner Circle members. In some of our cities (New York being one) reward nights have already sold out for the rest of the summer, which is why we urge our members to book further out during high demand periods.

The reason that you were able to book more easily in the past was that demand was lesser and the program was smaller. It really is more a matter of explosive growth and high demand than “stealthy capacity controls”. Our membership has more than doubled in recent years, and rest assured; we are close to announcing some exciting changes to address that growth and continue providing you value.

As far as devaluation of the welcome amenity, there has been no edict from our Home Office about cutting costs for this perk. In the years I’ve been with Kimpton, our program has always promised Inner Circle members at least two custom preferences (usually a favorite beverage and snack of choice). Then, time allowing, each hotel has the option to get creative and include any little extras they’re inspired to add. That said it’s clear that we have some training to do. No one should be receiving water in place of their preferred beverage. I know that I personally always look forward to a glass of wine in my room, and some bottled water just isn’t going to cut it after a long day of travel.

So thank you all for your feedback. Praise or complaints, it means a lot to us that you take the time to reach out. We take all feedback to heart and continue to use it to learn and improve.

This is flatly untrue. Almost every single other hotel chain has gone to a system where you can book reward stays on any night when Best Available Rate is being offered. Hyatt began this trend several years ago, and now Hilton/SPG/Marriott do the same. I believe that Fairmont has a similar set-up, as well, although I am less familiar with their program. There are Hilton properties in NYC that are available for reward booking NYE right now!!! Tell me that's the same policy as Kimpton's with a straight face. You can't. Kimpton's program offers availability that is significantly worse than any of those. It's not even close. And, the T&Cs are written in a way that is misleading at best.

As for there not being an edict from central about the IC welcome benefit, your post is either ignorance or it is a lie. You can look at the Internet archives for the Kimpton Inner Circle benefits page and clearly see that while the benefit was once advertised as "at least two personalized welcome amenities." The words "at least" were removed sometime between August 2013 and March 2014. And, me and many other IC members can vouch for the fact that the individuals hotels have taken this policy change to heart--amenities are across the board much stingier today than one year ago. If there was not an order to cut the perk, why were those two words removed from the benefits language?

It doesn't please me to call out Kimpton, but the lies and lack of communication must stop. If there is a massive increase in occupancy levels and room rates that necessitates a devaluation in elite benefits, that's fine. Every other hotel chain has done that. At the same time, most of them have been transparent about their devaluations, announcing them months in advance to allow for bookings under the pre-devaluation system. Here, we have what I'm calling a "stealth devaluation," because the benefits have very clearly been degraded, but there was no communication, no notice, and no attempt to explain the situation publicly.

Like the others here, I had a good run, but I will not make another paid Kimpton booking again unless there are significant changes to the program. Not a happy decision, but the principle necessitates it.

This is actually not true for hotel programs -- as long as a standard room is available for purchase, Marriott, Starwood, etc let people redeem it as a reward.

So, when I do... over and over again... to whom should I address my issue? Kimpton HQ? I feel chintzy complaining to the hotel front desk...

Thanks for engaging with us, at least, even if you didn't exactly have the answer we wanted. (And if I have free nights expiring early this fall, and the summer is already basically sold out, am I just SOL? Does a free night have to be reserved by its expiration date, or actually stayed in by its expiration date? The new change to a 1-year expiration policy certainly doesn't make this any easier.)

Sorry to hear that you feel that way. We have not devalued our elite benefits. Reward availability has never been based on last room availability. A reward night still requires only one reward certificate regardless of where in the country you redeem (as opposed to more complicated redemption schemas with other programs), and if the limited inventory frustrates you, we understand and respect your opinion. Booking further ahead will definitely ensure more availability. We appreciate the feedback, and should you choose to stay elsewhere, we are sorry to see you go, but we understand and wish you the very best.

SJC AA, we sent you a private message. Let’s see what we can do to help out.
Thanks,
Susan

I don't need a PM, I would just like the answer. Who should we contact?

As some have noted here and elsewhere, certain (many?) Kimpton hotels drop the ball on the amenity. When I ask for gummy bears and caramel corn, don't bring me two pieces of cheese and some jam. I don't want it and it is wasteful. I also don't want the same wine (swill in many places - my apologies for this comment but the wine quality at the 5PM happy hour has dropped precipitously over the last year) served at happy hour. I will note that I have had stays where the staff has gone above and beyond for my amenity but that doesn't excuse the poorly performing (amenity wise) other Kimptons. I will also note that it is rare to not receive great service at a Kimpton (few exceptions).


Lastly, while I don't doubt whatever award space that was available in NYC is gone, it's hard to believe that the entire summer is booked. :(.

Edit: A bit OT but a mechanism - something - to address the charges for unused mini bar items would be useful too. Maybe a common "whatever" via Kimpton "corporate" to address all these types of issues??? I don't believe emailing the CEO is the way to go here.

Cheers

I would still like an answer to why the words "at least" were dropped from the IC elite benefits page, if--in fact--there was no devaluation, as is being said by Kimpton. At some point in time, somebody made the conscious decision to eliminate those two words. They didn't simply disappear into a black hole. This isn't my opinion. This is a fact that can be observed by looking back at the history of the benefits language. By claiming that there is no devaluation, an argument is being made that the written T&Cs don't matter.

At this point, I feel like it's a losing battle to try to get an answer, since the message seems to be (over and over and over again) that there has been no devaluation.

The reality on the ground is far different than the message being presented by corporate, and that's what makes me most upset. I hate being treated like an idiot, and that's exactly how I feel with the communication that I get from Kimpton HQ. I find it impossible to trust a corporate entity, but I do believe that most individuals are inherently good. In this situation, I don't know if I'm being lied to or intentionally misled. I think there is a very real possibility that the problem lies with individual properties not living up to the expectations of the central office. In this case, maybe there has not been a wide devaluation, but simply many hotels individually (or in small groups) deciding to renege on benefits that the chain believes members are entitled to.

The benefits are worse now than before. I know this, because I did many stays prior to fall 2013, and I have done a number since. It is entirely possible that there is an availability heuristic at play, but other members seem to corroborate my recent experiences. Is that the result of a central decision? Have the individual properties been unable to keep up with the growing number of IC members? Is this a major fluke that I'm experiencing?

But more importantly for the folks on this board: what--if anything--is being done? The message that I hear is that the status quo will continue. Rewards will become increasingly difficult to redeem, but the overall earning structure will remain unchanged. I also hear an unwillingness to accept that there is a pervasive problem with overbilling on minibar and dining charges. This has been documented on the forums and is not new. It is the case at an alarming number of properties across the portfolio. Finally, I am hearing that if I don't like this, I should take my business elsewhere. That kind of language saddens me, as a person who has used my (limited) authority and experience on hotel programs to recommend Kimpton to a whole host of people.

We sincerely appreciate your response KimptonInTouch.

However, it is incredibly frustrating to have several reward nights expiring and not have the ability to use any of them because all of the hotels in the cities that I will be visiting have no reward availability.

Ditto. esp. with the 1-year expiration change.

Kimpton stealth devaluations?
 

I was always so excited to stay at Kimptons when I first matched to Inner Circle. The upgrades, amenities and service was great and helped me justify the $50+ more I was spending to stay there than another hotel. In the past sixth months I have had so many sub-par Kimpton experiences that I have opted to look elsewhere many times.

Side note, tried to redeem a free night for two different cities and was unable to do so in one until October, September in the other.

KimptonIntouch I really hope you address the concerns of this forum quickly. I have also seen a decline in benefits and service. I have about a dozen stays booked for the rest of this year, and will probably cancel most of them as the program is just not what it used to be. The price premium cannot be justified.

1) I can't speak to the OP's "sudden difficulty" in reward redemption since I haven't tried using any certificates for booking stays this summer (...doesn't sound like it is going to go smoothly.)

2) As for the devaluation of the IC welcome amenity I haven't experienced any changes for 2014 which sounds quite different from the other members posting on this thread. All good here except for when I book a stay for same day arrival. Then I get a random generic offering which I can sort of understand. I think it is important to note that the majority of my stays are in the West.

Anyone care to name properties/regions where they are getting subpar love on the amenity? Maybe we can find a commonality.

3) Regarding Kimpton being "stealth", I haven't been pleased with how InTouch handles and communicates program changes that fall under the devalue category. Subtle and unannounced rewording of benefits and T&C changes do not foster loyalty. I referred a colleague to InTouch recently and to give them the program overview I gave them the green InTouch pamphlet found in most rooms with the tear away temporary membership card inside. One of the ten Inner Circle benefits is the "Year end bonus reward tailored to you." Anyone receive that for 2013 or was that stealthily eliminated as well?

Nothing, after about 30 stays in 2013.

I've only been IC since earlier this year and have had several stays.

1) Only received my welcome beverage once. Everywhere else it has been water.

2) Snack wise, only one hotel didn't deliver on my preferences. Instead it was 6 small chocolates only, but I did apprecaite the very nice note left for my mom's birthday. I have to say the Palomar Philadelphia's home baked cookies blew the Monaco Chicago's 'Grandma's' brand cookies valued at $1.78. <- Even when placed on a plate, that's really 'phoning' it in, while still managing to satisfy my profile.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/s...YIShU&usqp=CAE

3) Upgrades. Few. I had a nice river view at the Chicago Monaco, but that's about it. No suites yet, though maybe the demand was always great? I have two Philadelphia stays in the next 11 days, so I hope we at least get one nice upgrade.

4) I feel Kimpton HQ does seem to listen and care, contrary to how some posters feel through their experiences. They responded back to this thread fast for example. Sure we haven't received 100% of what we want to hear, but they are listening. Though as pointed out in the other thread linked here, the minibar or other extra charges are a hassle and always take 3-4 emails to rectify...even if it is over $5.50!

I'm still happy with Kimpton, but many times Kimpton rooms are a good $100-$150 more than the competition (Especially in Philadelphia & NYC), so we flyertalkers do expect to see value in that additional spend!

On the availability front, I was able to book one of my reward nights yesterday. SF was only showing availability at two of their hotels, but at least that was something. So on this latest round of free nights, it only took a dozen tries to find something that worked.

The new Goodland hotel in Goleta hasn't opened availability for booking rewards nights; I understand that they don't do that until the hotel actually opens. So, if you want to book shortly after opening, that's tough.

On the amenity front, I there is a wide disparity between what hotels offer, and since I haven't returned to any of the hotels I stayed at 'pre-devaluation'/wording change, I don't have a true apples-to-apples comparison. That said, based on what I have experienced, and what I have heard, my sense of a devaluation is not unique.

Hotel Marlowe did a really bang-up job with the amenity--everything was ready on arrival to my preferences and they provided a night cap with turndown service. A fantastic stay, overall. Donovan House was probably one of the weaker offerings--a bottle of cheap wine and fruit plate, despite that being exactly what I do not want. I see no point in getting wine with the welcome amenity, since it's usually the same as the wine hour offerings and arrives at the same time. At Surfcomber, I've stayed a few times and the snacks are always on-point, but I did not receive drinks with the last stay. Wilshire, Eventi, Burnham, and Palomar Phoenix all deserve high praise on amenities, as well.

It's unclear to me whether there is a regional trend with amenity stinginess. My guess is that

In terms of upgrades, I am about 75% able to snag a suite. No complaints there.

I agree that Kimpton does a good job of being active on social media and FT. My big beef is that they are far more reactive than proactive--there seems to never be any advance notice of program changes (if there are changes), and the T&Cs are not helpful in a practical sense.

In terms of the year-end gift, I had never heard of that before. I certainly didn't receive one at the end of 2013.

Wow! 0% here. Let's see about this Saturday and next Friday in Philadelphia...

Here are the bottom lines for me (In addition to Kimpton IC, I'm Hyatt Diamond, Hilton Gold, SPG Gold, Club Carlson Gold, and Marriott Silver):

1. Kimpton reward nights are not searchable online. That is inconvenient, especially with limited phone center hours. This is certainly lagging in technology compared to the competition.
2. The reward nights do not offer last room availability. Others have pointed this out already. I've benefited from the last room availability with Hyatt, Marriott, and Carlson myself. Also lagging compared to competition.

Those two factors have led me to booking Marriott and Hyatt stays, either reward or revenue, on nights when Kimpton had revenue rooms, but not reward availability. It is what it is.

The Kimpton system was great with few elites and a limited fan base. They are now more popular because of good press (well deserved, frankly), status matches, and a better economy. Perhaps the reward night system is overloaded. Will they change it? I hope they do. If they don't, I'll just spend more nights at Hyatt.

For 2011 - Didn't get anything
For 2012 - Got an email (I think) offering several options (free stay, dining credit, credit for merch, etc). I selected a dining credit, but never received it.
For 2013 - nada

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for this feedback. Truly. Just want you to know that, not only am I still following this thread, but I’ve forwarded your comments to our Execs so they know what our best members are saying on Flyertalk.

Now I need your help. We very much want to fix these inconsistencies you’ve been experiencing but we can’t address the amenity issues if we don’t have details.

I’ll be posting a dedicated Home Office email address so you can contact us directly in the future but, for now, it’s important that you private message me the names of the hotels where you’ve had bad amenity experiences so that we can look into them.

Please know that we take this very seriously and want to make sure that you get full value out of the program, as well as the VIP treatment you deserve when you’re with us. Thank you all for taking the time to help.

Susan

I sincerely appreciate having KimptonInTouch active on FT. Thank you Susan.

Investigating the welcome amenity issue is a fantastic start but I still hope we hear from you regarding the other valid concerns raised on this thread.

So as to not detract/hijack, I've started a separate thread to collect data for you on the welcome amenity experiences. Private messages don't really help members make decisions on where to stay and I'd like to modify your request by also including positive experiences so that we can reward those locations. My guess is that the data will reveal a few bad apples but kudos at most spots.

No one should have to play a game of Sophie's Choice between eating the vending machine chocolate chip cookie or the loaner pet goldfish.

I'm trying to transition from longtime lurker to contributor one post at a time...

Kimpton also advertises free nights in new hotels for Inner Circle members. The Brice and the Angler's have opened this year and yet there is still no way to redeem this benefit there. So are we really surprised that Kimpton dropped the ball on a published benefit?

I read this official statement from Kimpton as: we heard you, but we don't care since we are getting plenty of business right now. If you don't like it, feel free to leave.

Last year I spoke proudly of my IC status. This year? Well, we have Susan's statement above to remember.

Flyertalkers,

We'll never get so much business that we stop caring deeply about our loyal members. Guest care is embedded in our Kimpton DNA. I hope that that care is demonstrated not only on this board but in every hotel experience. We have set policies that we have to adhere to like any company, but we think we are pretty generous with perks overall.

I sat here for a while reading these comments, and thought about what to write, and finally concluded that all I can do is express our genuine and heartfelt care, but I can't apologize about our policies. We are doing everything we can to address the inconsistencies you have brought to our attention here and in private messages. Your feedback (thank you!) has been escalated to our top leaders, who are actively investigating and addressing. These comments are not falling in a corporate black hole but rather on the desks of people who very much care.

Susan

My DD (flyertalker in training) got this e-mail and immediately put Kimpton on her speed dial to get Inner Circle status via a status match due to her concerns about devaluation. I guess she is finally listening to her old mom :)

Wow. I registered (after lurking for some time) just to respond to this thread. I just completed a stay at the MUSE in NY on 6/21/14 using a free night. I'd actually reserved three nights in a row, but canceled the other two because I had a business meeting so my employer paid. I believe I booked it in April (when I used another free night). I will say that when I called to cancel those nights, the person I spoke with was shocked that I had three nights in a row...

I've been Inner Circle for 3, maybe 4 years. I have had positive experiences 95% of the time with few exceptions (the SF Palomar during renovations in March of this year as one very notable example). My amenity is fairly simple (fruit and water), and is typically great. It has been less than ideal at some locations, but I can't recall off the top of my head. I'm also upgraded to a suite 80% of the time.

I did have a difficult time utilizing my free new hotel night when the Monaco opened in Philadelphia last year, and I did not receive a loyalty reward in 2013, although I did in 2012 and 2011. For me the most significant downgrade has been the 12 (vs. 24) month expiration period for free nights. But that happened some time ago.

Overall I'm quite pleased.

I love kimpton also, I wish I could stay more often but I'm often in cities without a Kimpton hotel. I still manage to do 20+ a year.

Anyways, I have had enormous difficulty using my free nights. I recently tried to use it in NYC and only found Sundays and Mondays available. I hope they fix this!

I am ready to learn of the new program changes. The Kimpton Facebook has been teasing it for the last couple days with the mystery symbols.

"Things have a way of coming full circle. What would you like to see out of our new loyalty program?" People's comments have varied from consistency of treatment between all properties, easier award redemptions, and then the usual ask for more such as easier to earn free nights, free breakfast, free valet parking, easier to earn inner circle status.

I'm guessing the 4 symbols represent the new tier levels (perhaps a bump in tier every 5 stays with top tier being 20+ stays.)

KimptonInTouch : I am one stay away from renewing Inner Circle (some property rates are through the roof right now at 400-600/night), do I or others need to worry about getting a quick stay(s) in before the launch of the new program?

Hi Everyone,

In response to Roger's question: No. There's no need to do anything differently in order to achieve or retain Inner Circle status. It's business as usual for our awesome members as we get ready to introduce new perks and surprises and a refreshed program. We can't wait to show you what we've been working on. Luckily, we don't have to wait very long...

I love Kimpton, but I have learned to not have a lot of confidence in the phone agents. So when looking to book award nights I have learned to call back.

My most recent experience involved a very sweet agent, but who sounded like my grandmother both in being endearing and (lack of) skill with a computer. She talked through each step she took saying things like, "Oh, l'etoile, now why is that there? That's not supposed to be there. How do you think I get rid of that." Needless to say she did not see availability at the hotel I wanted. A later call to another agent got the award nights.

So, while not the answer in all cases, it certainly can't hurt to try calling again. This was not a one-off for me with Kimpton phone agents who could not successfully handle a task.

Tried to book a reward night again and got "sorry, no reward nights available". I have yet to see more useless hotel rewards program. Details in this thread
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/othe...-level-16.html

Looks like Kimpton Hotels discovered a way to make their hotel rewards program even more useless. Since the last time I spoke to them (details here https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/othe...-level-16.html) one of my free reward nights mysteriously disappeared. A Karma advisor I spoke to on the phone had no idea why and offered to forward my concern to management :-) Very happy that I ended my participation in this program in favor of Hilton Honors Gold, which offers real and usable benefits.

5 TOTAL FT posts - all bashing Kimpton. Helpful.:rolleyes:

I spoke well of Hilton Honors, that's somewhat helpful :) No problems with Hilton after using them extensively for all travel over two month period.

Maybe rc3 found FT via a search after disappointing Kimpton stays (?) - that's kind of a valid reason to be posting almost entirely negative stuff. That being said, rc3 does lose a bit of credibility if his/her posting history re Kimpton is bash bash bash.

Spend some time on FT. Spread your knowledge. If Kimpton isn't your thing, and you've had bad experiences, please continue commenting ... but do note that the Kimpton Koolaid is strong and others will disagree (vehemently at times).

Cheers -